Wayne Rooney
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7lb in water weight? It just shows that pre season Rooney either piled it on or ate loads and trained less. He was still involved with pre season with man utd though so how much did he put on after euro 2012? He must have put on like a stone
Caporegime
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I don't usually do the multi quote thing but here you go.
Firstly I didn't imply his ability was ENTIRELY predicated on anything at all, I said one of the reasons he was one of the very best was he practiced more than anyone. I base this off everyone with any amount of knowledge about football saying so. Every team mate, every manager, everyone who knows him says he spent more time practicing and honing his craft than anyone else they've ever seen.
THis is relevant how? Oh wait it isn't. Also Beckham has played central midfield for about the last, I dunno, 7-8 years, but don't let that stop your ridiculous "you can't compare because I sound daft if you do".
Where Ronaldo plays is completely irrelevant to him being good in the air. He dominates the box over defenders, midfielders and strikers who are all in the box on set pieces. Defenders, midfielders or strikers can be good, or bad in the air, can be known for their strength, or not, can be known for their speed or not. I didn't mention Beckhams position, its neither here nor there, his game has never, ever been known for being pacey, strong or good in the air, these are abilities no one, including Beckham, or anyone in their right mind would ever use to describe Beckham. Yet you decided to say he has scored with his head and isn't the slowest player ever, neither things I claimed in the first place.
You can compare a player known for his strength, to a player not, their position is irrelevant to the argument. Falcao is known for his strength, as is Yaya, Owen is not, neither is Modric..... zomg, different positions. Hulk played on the wing a lot for Porto, more than upfront, and he's known for his strength. You simply have no point or argument here.
I just thought I'd point this out again, you claim they play different positions(which is incorrect), and they PLAY A DIFFERENT GAME...., you do know soccer and football are the same thing right?
No, I wasn't, I was comparing players known for a quality, with players not known for them, but you are randomly suggesting that player has those qualitys. Beckham was never, ever pretty pacey, he was mostly less regarded as a winger because.... lack of pace/ability to beat his man which often go together, not always, but often. Considering a wingers job is to play down the side of the pitch in an offensive capacity and put in as many crosses as possible and sometimes come in and shoot.... I'd be hard pressed to call Beckham not a winger, also as said, he's been a central midfielder for basically as long as he was a right winger.
Most of Beckhams "talent" is precision, which mostly comes from practice, and again, I haven't at any stage said he didn't have natural ability AT FOOTBALL, I said he wasn't naturally strong or fast.
Yet again, you are claiming an argument I never made, did you notice in that sentence you quoted that no where did I come close to saying Scholes "was only good because....." , because I didn't even come close to suggesting it.
I'm saying one of the reasons he's been the best and is still at 340years old or whatever, Utd's best central midfielder by a freaking ridiculous margin, is because he practiced, trained harder and pee'd around off the pitch a heck of a lot less.
Yes, in about 15 arguments I never made, Castiel managed to prove himself delusional.
However you implied that that he had to do practice more than everyone else due to a lack of natural innate talent, you also implied the same about Paul Scholes....what you need to consider that the other players such as Ronaldo that you mentioned also put in the same about amount of time and effort in honing their skills...skiills which you said that Ronaldo had regardless of whether he training insanely hard or not, yet Beckham had to because he lacked that edge that innate ability gave Ronaldo.....I said I disagree with that.
The interesting thing about your basis for saying such is that on no occasion did any of those players, managers and pundits ever express the same opinion as you regarding Beckham's innate talent as a footballer, they only expressed an admiration for his work ethic, something that is also true of Ronaldo and the majority of other top players in today's game.
I do not know what games you are watching, but for L.A Galaxy and AC Milan, David Beckham is invariably playing in a right midfield position, that is not to say that he has not played on occasion in a central position however when comparing like-for-like players for relevant attributes it is important to realise that the strengths and skills needed to be a successful holding/defensive midfielder such as Nigel De Jong or a Central Midfielder like Yaya Toure are different from a Right Midfielder such as David Beckham.
His position is important to the attributes that are required to perform in that position and at what level, it is also important when considering disparate players and their relative strengths and weakness agaisnt each other...Great Handling Skills are not really relevant to a Striker, whereas they are to a Goalkeeper for example. I disagree with you assessment that Beckham for example doesn't possess good strength when compared with other Right Midfielders, and neither do I particularly agree that he was particularly slow or not good in the air...it is simply that he had no need to be exceptional in these areas due to his playing position..and whether he possessed good ability in the air or a burst of speed when it was necessary wasn't really part of his game.
I think it is only irrelevant becasue you need it to be so to support your position that players like Ronaldo would be great regardless of their work ethic, yet players like Beckham had to work harder than his world class peers simply to compete with the them. Beckham had/had great vision, creativity, ball control, passing, he was strong on the ball (regardless of what you seem to think) and good in possession (strength on the ball being a prerequisite) in his prime he was strong, quick, albeit not imbued with a huge amount of pace, and has exceptional skill and creative vision, these things were a part of the talent that he had, a talent that, like most world class footballers he honed with dedication, ambition and hard work, just like the Cristiano Ronaldo's and all the other players you compared him with. Wayne Rooney also has a high work ethic despite the arguments to the contrary, he would not be playing at the level he does without dedication and plain hard work.
They do play in different positions, Toure is primarily a central defensive midfield player who does push forward, De Jong is primarily a Defensive Midfielder, Ronaldo is an Attacking Forward/Midfielder whereas Beckham is primarily a Right Midfielder.
And it was plainly obvious to everyone that I was relating to Beckham's and the others style of play and positional play when referring to their game......If you need to resort to semantics and unnecessary word games to prove your point then I suggest you simply don't bother.
You were clearly comparing a right midfielder to a range of strikers and forwards...and in other comparisons defensive midfielders, depending ont he attribute you were trying to describe, this is hardly an objective way to compare respective footballing ability across a range of different players. You might think it is because it suit the argument you are trying to put forward that players like Beckham have to practice harder than others to get to a comparable level in the game. I think it simply not representative.
Again, you seem to be implying that Beckhams "talent" as you put it, is predicated by his dedication, and that unlike the other players, namely Ronaldo, he would never have succeeded without that dedication...whereas I am of the opinion that he did have innate talent and that ALL world class players need that same dedication to succeed including Ronaldo.
I think you need to look at the way in which you portray your opinion, it certainly seems that you are implying that their success is predicated in large part to their dedication whereas others are successful predicated by their innate talent...I agree that dedication and work ethic plays a huge part in their success, but that is true of the vast majority of world class players and it is also in large part to their innate ability, again like the vast majority of world class players. Ypou could argue that Wayne Rooney could be even better if he had a higher work ethic, but that is really asll you could claim.
Well, personal insults aside, I think that you made a claim about relative natural ability in different players that simply isn't supportable.
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Caporegime
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Castiel it's really not worth trying to debate with DM.
Interesting thread though. I'm surprised that the United management allow players to get out of shape and show a lack of commitment, maybe there is a genuine reason behind why he is the way he is? I'm sure they use sports psychologists etc as well.
I don't even think that is is particularly true that he has a commitment issue or he is out of shape.....aside from the usual shenanigans that young men get up to, like drinking and smoking on occasion (and to which he got castigated by his manager), I have seen no real evidence that he is lacking in fitness, given the general displays of commitment and the powerhouse performances on the field as a matter of course (how many times is Rooney attacking at one end one minute and defending at the other the next). He is only out at the moment because of an actual injury sustained on the field.
Essentially all this talk of a lack of fitness and commitment is fooey perpetrated by both the media and rival fanbases.
Caporegime
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OK, fair enough.
I'll quote this post because, well, its easier, again, everything you said is daft because you are suggesting it in reply to an argument I never made.
Find a quote where I said Ronaldo would still be as good if he didn't try hard, find me something where I said Beckham would be crap if he didn't work harder, etc, etc.
You're talking out of your rear, arguing against a point I never made, one that is absurd, and you made up. If you find you stop making up things I never said, you'd have a lot less to disagree with.
Here's a hint, if everyone trained exactly as hard as Beckham, it wouldn't be a point to highlight would it. The simple fact is, every single person of any merit who has ever spoken about Beckham says he trains harder than EVERYONE else they've ever seen. Again I'll point out, I think that is one of the main reasons he is where he is, who he is and as successful as he is. I didn't say he'd be a terrible player, or that he had no talent, you conjured that out of thin air, as the rest of your argument.
I merely suggested that without a heavy level of practice Beckham has less physical attributes to fall back on. If Ronaldo practiced his freekicks less, he'd still be one of the single fastest players in the game, one of the best headers/jumpers, incredible agility. It's fairly common in basically every area of life, its "easier" if you have all the tools, those who succeed when they have less tools at their disposal often have to work harder. IE a genius gets a first degree barely trying, a dumbass can still get a first but might have to work insanely hard, this isn't a new idea.
Please quote where I called him rubbish.
Because he's a horrible beggar and no amount of money can change your underlying nature?
No player is 'bigger' than SAF.
To begin with I did not say that you said he would be crap, only that he was less gifted and had to train harder than everyone else just to become world class, implying that that without his work ethic he would not be as good as those we associate as world class or that he lacked the same innate attributes that many world class players have, for example I think that to become world class you need a combination of innate talent, commitment and a determination to succeed and those are attributes common to ALL world class players.....and I disagreed with the assessment on his relative strengths and weaknesses and the way in which you were conducting that assessment against disparate players who possessed whatever strength you want to demonstrate rather than comparing Beckham to other Right Sided Mid-fielders to get an objective gauge of his innate talent and the effort required to attain that. But anyway if you want a quote that demonstrates the point that you stated that Ronaldo would be good if he didn't try so hard and Beckham would not, here you go:
So in fact you explicitly said that Ronaldo would be good regardless of the effort he put in, whereas Beckham had to put the work in as he was not so gifted.....
Clearly I am not, as you made the precise claim that I questioned as evidenced in your quoted post. As I said you may wish to revisit how you word (maybe with a few less) your posts as they certain imply exactly what I mentioned to you.
Whereas I disagree with that, for all the reasons I gave in the earlier posts.
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Oh I agree.
I loved younger Rooney (on the pitch) even as an opposition fan he was a joy to behold. Never liked the bloke and I can add to that I don't like the player Ferguson has turned him into. I get the feeling at times he wants a Shearer but Rooney isn't that naturally gifted a finisher and to compound that hes better running at people than with his back to goal feeding.
I honestly think we will look back in 30-40 years and recognise him alongside Gazza as someone who could have been the best but never quite made it. Shame.
Caporegime
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Screw it what the hell.
I didn't imply he HAD to, I implied its whats led him to be one of the worlds best for so long, nothing more or less, and I didn't say this had ANYTHING to do with a lack of talent at all, anywhere, I said his PHYSICAL game wasn't anything special, other players have talent AND speed/power/pace.
I no where suggested Ronaldo would be as good if he didn't train at all, again if Ronaldo didn't practice free kicks, he'd still have the pace to burn around 99% of the worlds best players, that is an inate PHYSICAL ABILITY, not talent, that Beckham simply does not have and has never had.
I made no claim about his inate talent.
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/gamecast?id=336329&cc=5739 go to live, tactics and the heat map, it shows the average position of a player, Beckham is listed as the right CENTRAL MID, and his average position is in the centre circle..... You'll find he mostly played as a right forward in a front three at Real and AC, though he moved to part of the middle three under Capello at Real and has mostly played there for LA. He's played centrally for Real, England and LA for, well, a long time now.
His position ISN'T important to TALKING ABOUT HIS PHYSICAL ABILITY, which is all that was happening. I said he wasn't strong, you said he was, end of, there was no comparing it in relation to his ability, its that simple. Also again, he's been a central mid primarily for what is now half his career or more.
I could say, David Cameron isn't known for his strength, then you say "but I saw him lifting 80kg's on the bench press at his gym so I challenge you saying he isn't known for his strength", I come back and say, for the love of god, no he isn't, then reel off a list of any people who are known for their strength. This is ALL that happened, Beckham happens to be a footballer so I listed footballers who are known for their strength, whose strength is a huge part of their game, nothing else, their position is irrelevant.
It gets worse....
Toure is not primarily a central defensive player, at all, he is almost exactly the same as Beckham, defends when required, main central midfield creative attacking player... they simply play the role differently, Beckham with passing, Yaya with power/strength/running with the ball. They play the same position and have done for ages.
Yaya is what most people consider a box to box midfielder, he's certainly not very defensive and wasn't even at Barca, he was merely the most defensive of a ridiculously offensive midfield. Beckham plays centrally, has done for years, does lots of work defensively and plays pretty much the same role as Yaya, just in a very different way..... neither here nor there because I never compared positions.
Seriously.....nope.
Again, just no, I said his level of success was based on how hard he worked, I also said he wouldn't be at the level he got to nor for as long without that work, not that he could never have gotten anywhere. All players do clearly NOT need to dedicate themselves the same amount. This is clear in every walk of life, one guy gets a first degree barely trying, another guy who is less smart has to work 10 times harder but still gets a first.
It's fairly rare for someone who is slow and weak to make it in football, while big, or fast, or strong players are more common even if their skill level.... leaves a lot to be desired *cough* Stoke *cough*. It is also patently clear when everyone at Utd, Real and for England say Beckham always trained harder than everyone else.... that no one else trained as hard as Beckham.
THe closest you've got yet, but still wrong. If you don't think some people are more naturally gifted and can get away with working less hard and other people are less gifted but have still found success by working harder, you don't live on planet earth, because there are examples of this being true every single place you look on earth, every single sport, every single industry, every single area of life.
Beckham isn't the fastest, isn't the strongest, isn't the best in the air, isn't the most skillful player on earth, yet is one of the all time most successful players of our generation. Ronaldo is one of the fastest, is one of the strongest, is one of the best in the air, is one of the most skillful players and is one of the most successful players of our generation. If they both stop practicing, become inaccurate and can barely shoot that Ronaldo's pace, strength and heading ability won't help him beat other players more often than a player who has none of those things....
I didn't imply he HAD to, I implied its whats led him to be one of the worlds best for so long, nothing more or less, and I didn't say this had ANYTHING to do with a lack of talent at all, anywhere, I said his PHYSICAL game wasn't anything special, other players have talent AND speed/power/pace.
I no where suggested Ronaldo would be as good if he didn't train at all, again if Ronaldo didn't practice free kicks, he'd still have the pace to burn around 99% of the worlds best players, that is an inate PHYSICAL ABILITY, not talent, that Beckham simply does not have and has never had.
I made no claim about his inate talent.
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/gamecast?id=336329&cc=5739 go to live, tactics and the heat map, it shows the average position of a player, Beckham is listed as the right CENTRAL MID, and his average position is in the centre circle..... You'll find he mostly played as a right forward in a front three at Real and AC, though he moved to part of the middle three under Capello at Real and has mostly played there for LA. He's played centrally for Real, England and LA for, well, a long time now.
His position ISN'T important to TALKING ABOUT HIS PHYSICAL ABILITY, which is all that was happening. I said he wasn't strong, you said he was, end of, there was no comparing it in relation to his ability, its that simple. Also again, he's been a central mid primarily for what is now half his career or more.
I could say, David Cameron isn't known for his strength, then you say "but I saw him lifting 80kg's on the bench press at his gym so I challenge you saying he isn't known for his strength", I come back and say, for the love of god, no he isn't, then reel off a list of any people who are known for their strength. This is ALL that happened, Beckham happens to be a footballer so I listed footballers who are known for their strength, whose strength is a huge part of their game, nothing else, their position is irrelevant.
It gets worse....
Toure is not primarily a central defensive player, at all, he is almost exactly the same as Beckham, defends when required, main central midfield creative attacking player... they simply play the role differently, Beckham with passing, Yaya with power/strength/running with the ball. They play the same position and have done for ages.
Yaya is what most people consider a box to box midfielder, he's certainly not very defensive and wasn't even at Barca, he was merely the most defensive of a ridiculously offensive midfield. Beckham plays centrally, has done for years, does lots of work defensively and plays pretty much the same role as Yaya, just in a very different way..... neither here nor there because I never compared positions.
Seriously.....nope.
Again, just no, I said his level of success was based on how hard he worked, I also said he wouldn't be at the level he got to nor for as long without that work, not that he could never have gotten anywhere. All players do clearly NOT need to dedicate themselves the same amount. This is clear in every walk of life, one guy gets a first degree barely trying, another guy who is less smart has to work 10 times harder but still gets a first.
It's fairly rare for someone who is slow and weak to make it in football, while big, or fast, or strong players are more common even if their skill level.... leaves a lot to be desired *cough* Stoke *cough*. It is also patently clear when everyone at Utd, Real and for England say Beckham always trained harder than everyone else.... that no one else trained as hard as Beckham.
THe closest you've got yet, but still wrong. If you don't think some people are more naturally gifted and can get away with working less hard and other people are less gifted but have still found success by working harder, you don't live on planet earth, because there are examples of this being true every single place you look on earth, every single sport, every single industry, every single area of life.
Beckham isn't the fastest, isn't the strongest, isn't the best in the air, isn't the most skillful player on earth, yet is one of the all time most successful players of our generation. Ronaldo is one of the fastest, is one of the strongest, is one of the best in the air, is one of the most skillful players and is one of the most successful players of our generation. If they both stop practicing, become inaccurate and can barely shoot that Ronaldo's pace, strength and heading ability won't help him beat other players more often than a player who has none of those things....
Caporegime
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Lets try some English here, I didn't say he would be good regardless of the effort put in, lets requote it again shall we
Ronaldo comes across as someone who is gifted, Beckham doesn't. That is all I said.... how could I say something so outrageous, was it Beckham scoring 50 goals a few times in his career.... or did Ronaldo do that. The bit you left out is where I said he could still be a top player if he put in not quite so much effort...... so regardless of the amount of effort he put in.... don't think I said that either did I.
Beckham doesn't do tricks, he doesn't run with the ball like he can beat anyone, he isn't physically gifted, Ronaldo is. Ronaldo is so far a superior player to Beckham.
Beckham is, at his best point in his career maybe marginally the best right winger in the world, in reality he probably wasn't even in the top 3 best players in his position at any point, best English right winger/player, sure. Ronaldo and Messi are miles ahead of everyone else, Beckham isn't, and has never been miles ahead of everyone else.
Beckham isn't the most technically or physically gifted player in the world, Ronaldo and Messi are(well Ronaldo is, Messi needed a little hormone magic to be so). Ronaldo and Messi could be half as good and still be the two best players in the world by a smaller distance, Beckham half as good, wouldn't be particularly good at all.
Also, not SO gifted, I think you'll be in what would be the extreme minority of people to think Beckham was as gifted as Ronaldo, but if you want to believe that go ahead.
How does not being as gifted as Ronaldo, what I claimed, equate to you implying I said Beckham didn't have much inate talent.... which is what you claimed?
Also, how does that stack up with your claims on position comparing, which didn't happen, or the other things you are suggesting I implied, which didn't?
One last claim you make, that I implied Beckham needed to practice harder than others to get to the same level. I actually didn't I said and you quoted it for me, that he comes across as a guy who has to practice harder TO GET AN EDGE.. thus, implying I was saying he had to practice harder to be better than those around him.
Anyway, I'm too easily wound up by people who come on forums to purposefully misrepresent what I say and will take Shami's advise and not bother continuing. Surfice to say, you're wrong!! Nah na!
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.I disagree, Beckham has a natural physical presence about him, if you look at Ronaldo when he first came to United he was not anywhere near the same physical prowess he has now, so equally he has worked to gain that physicality. Also with regards to other attributes, most, of not all of the players you mentioned play in a different position which as a rule requires different attributes, including pace or defending and so on....so instead of comparing Beckham to another comparable player, you are comparing him to a selection of attributes from a selection of other players.
The post quoted earlier disputes that rather conclusively.
I watch LA every game and Beckham invariably plays right of midfield. MLS generally designates Midfielder across the central four regardless of precise position...interestingly Beckham has started in a central holding position (as I did point out earlier btw), however if you watch his play he drifts over the right more often than not, and regardless Beckham is known as primarily a Right Midfielder.
The point is not his physical ability, which you are right I do not agree with you, but the way in which you are selecting who to compare him with to judge it objectively....I have explained why that would imply a bias that you clearly cannot see.
I think we clearly watch different games, because Toure is as I said, a Defensive Midfielder who pushed forward....You are actually quoting Wikipedia omitting the part that actually states he is both defensive and offensive (which is precisely what I stated) whereas I am giving my own opinion....maybe you should judge for yourself first.
I disagree that Beckham is the same kind of player as Yaya Toure, I don't think they are comparable in either position or style of play.
Well, regardless you mentioned Falcao, Owen, Defoe and Ronaldo. All Forwards, something Beckham never was.....you could compare Beckham to other right midfielders or even other cultured midfielders, but not really the players who have mentioned so far.....at least not to objectively assess Beckhams relative ability as a footballer, either physically or creatively.
I do not disagree with the general point, however I do not agree with that assessment when comparing Beckham with Ronaldo or the way in which you implied his status was largely predicated on it......
I think you are putting too much import into the praise for Beckhams work ethic....particularly with regard to it being the primary reason for his success due to his implied lack of innate strengths on which to fall back on....it is clear that Beckham is a highly dedicated and professional footballer, but I doubt he is any more so than Paul Scholes or Cristiano Ronaldo or Ryan Giggs and so on....
You are misunderstanding me, I never said anything like that, only that I disagree that Beckham matches your assessment of him.
They are different players, they play a different type of game and I disagree that Beckham is not one of the strongest players in his position in his prime, not the fastest, although his style didn't require it, his aerial ability, again was no worse than most players in his position...and he was quicker than some, and skill he had in bucketloads...he was and remains one of the most visionary,creative and cultured midfielders in World Football.
Anyway, I seem to be repeating myself somewhat and really I have said pretty much all there is to say....sufficed to say, I disagree with you on several points regarding your assessment of Beckham and the way in which you assessed relative attributes across disparate players and playing styles to try to illustrate it.
On the general point that some players are better than others, have different work ethics, playing attributes, that some need to work harder than others to attain the same level of play etc...I do not disagree., only that Beckham necessarily falls into the latter category.