Wenger - 1000 games

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At Arsenal he would be at a team with effectively twice the spending power in wages and transfers, he could build something and NOT see it torn apart after it gets successful..

So because you might then build a successful team again it wouldn't get torn apart?

Are you going to stop being Spains feeder club all of a sudden ;)

If you build a successful club that won't stop bigger clubs being able to tear it apart, City, Chelsea, Barca and Madrid or even Manu wouldn't all of a sudden dissapear and you best players would still get their heads turned.
 
Klopp has seen a huge amount of his work undone, many of his players have to be sold/leaving for wages Dortmund simply can't afford. Bayern get scared of their spending.

Dortmund are spending 70-80mil on wages a year and are losing all their best players as other teams offer them 150k a week and they can only afford 70-80k a week for most of the squad.

At Arsenal he would be at a team with effectively twice the spending power in wages and transfers, he could build something and NOT see it torn apart after it gets successful.

MOving into the future the 20+ point gap between Dortmund and Bayern for the past two seasons is going to be standard. Dortmund can't compete truly long term, a lucky round of buys/youngsters and more importantly, a few lazy years by Bayern were they were poorly managed and allowed Dortmund to beat them to the league. The way Bayern have built up in the past 4 years, Dortmund have precisely zero chance at being competitive for the next five years.

This is absolutely the time for Klopp to move on.

This is exactly why we need to give Moyes the boot and get Klopp in the summer.

You lot can have De Boer.
 
I think it's pretty apparent that a significant change is required at the club.

Really? I think we're playing with fire personally. Fans forget that Wenger has had the same thing happened to his team over the last 6/7 years, best players sold, players over 30 not allowed to be given new contracts because of Kroenke. What is an apparent is the choking of finances over the last few years for the benefit of the future/running in the black.

Depends how you view it though, Chelsea/City have spent ridiculous amounts of money compared to, i suppose, more business orientated clubs. Ie Arsenal/everyone else etc etc. Were not all fortunate to have owners who like their football enough to pump hundreds of millions in without batting an eyelid.

The change will come at some point though, i suppose.
 
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Really? I think we're playing with fire personally. Fans forget that Wenger has had the same thing happened to his team over the last 6/7 years, best players sold, players over 30 not allowed to be given new contracts because of Kroenke. What is an apparent is the choking of finances over the last few years for the benefit of the future/running in the black.

Depends how you view it though, Chelsea/City have spent ridiculous amounts of money compared to, i suppose, more business orientated clubs. Ie Arsenal/everyone else etc etc. Were not all fortunate to have owners who like their football enough to pump hundreds of millions in without batting an eyelid.

The change will come at some point though, i suppose.

That's got nothing to do with Kronke, it's always been Wenger's own policy.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/aug/26/arsene-wenger-sebastien-squillaci-arsenal

That was in 2010, Kronke didn't take over until 2011.

And that article also points out another problem, Sebastien Squillaci?!! How was that ever going to work out well? That was the calibre of player we've had to get used to Wenger signing because he spent all the money on giving dross like 'Barndoor' Bendtner and Denilson £50k contracts. Absolute madness.
 
So because you might then build a successful team again it wouldn't get torn apart?

Are you going to stop being Spains feeder club all of a sudden ;)

If you build a successful club that won't stop bigger clubs being able to tear it apart, City, Chelsea, Barca and Madrid or even Manu wouldn't all of a sudden dissapear and you best players would still get their heads turned.

Dortmund have half the team lining up to leave because half of europe is offering them more money and Dortmund can't do anything about it.

Cesc/RVP left for different reasons, and financially we were fully capable of competing. Both players left because they were never going to win anything at Arsenal, nothing more or less. They'd had it proven to them season after season. If we had a top manager who was actually competitive, RVP wouldn't have forced his way out, neither would Cesc, etc.

Even with success, Dortmund players are leaving for the money, with money and no success Arsenal players are leaving primarily for the success. If we had a manager delivering success and the club fully capable of supplying the money we wouldn't need to lose players.

Cesc may still have left, he's a Barcelona player at heart and always was. Not every player is the same and all have their own backgrounds. Ronaldo left regardless of his success at Utd, because he's closer to home and more suited to living in Spain than England.

But as I've always maintained, players leave. Utd, Chelsea, Real, Barca, bayern all lose top players, that is the way of football. Every year there will be 10 new stars, another 50 damn good players, and another 100 potentially good players.

I have no problems with players moving on, for money, success, simply a different challenge, or because they dislike living in England(or anywhere else). There is always new talent, great deals, and experienced old players to grab and Wenger has done a very poor job of finding top talent.

Any manager, regardless of the club, has to cope with talent moving on or retiring. There will never be a lack of talent available, only a lack of managers being able to find those new players.
 
That's got nothing to do with Kronke, it's always been Wenger's own policy.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/aug/26/arsene-wenger-sebastien-squillaci-arsenal

That was in 2010, Kronke didn't take over until 2011.

And that article also points out another problem, Sebastien Squillaci?!! How was that ever going to work out well? That was the calibre of player we've had to get used to Wenger signing because he spent all the money on giving dross like 'Barndoor' Bendtner and Denilson £50k contracts. Absolute madness.

That over 30's rules it was in force long before then, it was brought in as measure when they moved from Highbury..

Squillaci? He's had over 21 caps for France, he was always a back up or what not. Players move to clubs all the time where it doesn't work out. Not a big deal. Ask united fans..similiar dross in Djemba Djemba..
I'd like to point out Bendter was 200k, cheap as chips. Sure, he gave him the big contract, but that was a token that he would get to the level that was expected of him, Bendter didn't give a monkey though, blame the player, not the manager.


Wenger is always king at finding talent, last 5 season this is..scroll down a bit.

http://www.transferleague.co.uk/league-tables/transfer-league-table-last-five-seasons.html

I hope DM see's it, but he's put me on ignore, pretty hilarious. He might not have a pop at Wenger so much, it wouldnt matter anyway, DM would still dislike the guy..
 
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Really? I think we're playing with fire personally. Fans forget that Wenger has had the same thing happened to his team over the last 6/7 years, best players sold, players over 30 not allowed to be given new contracts because of Kroenke. What is an apparent is the choking of finances over the last few years for the benefit of the future/running in the black.

Depends how you view it though, Chelsea/City have spent ridiculous amounts of money compared to, i suppose, more business orientated clubs. Ie Arsenal/everyone else etc etc. Were not all fortunate to have owners who like their football enough to pump hundreds of millions in without batting an eyelid.

The change will come at some point though, i suppose.

There has been precisely no choking of finances, we've spent consistently more. We're predicted to have a 160mil wage spend this year, two years ago it was 143mil. Wenger chooses to have a more balanced wage structure(the majority say between 60-100k rather than at most clubs where some guys are on 20k and some at 250k. He chose to go higher wages and lower transfer spending. He chose to stop offering long deals to older players, no one else but him.


You can buy Ronaldo at 80mil, or buy the same player 5 years earlier for 12mil. The fundamental fact is that City/Chelsea/PSG/Monaco are buying established talent as newly financially competitive clubs building from essentially scratch. There isn't anything stopping them buying the younger cheaper 10mil players and waiting 3-5 years for significant success, but they had no need to wait.

Just because one club spends £40mil on a striker doesn't mean you can't get one as good for £2mil or £10mi, or £20mil.

Irrespective of other teams spending, the 12mil we spent on Giroud could have gone towards a better more expensive player, or a better alternative 12mil player, it could have been better spent. That is the difference, not the difference between our spending and City's, but the difference between our spending, who we spent it on and who we could have instead spent it on.

On almost every occasion we've spent, it's looked mostly like poor business. Ozil was a shocker, no chance in hell he'd be worth 42mil, seen him play for 5 years and has never ever looked more than a 15-20mil player and that was when propped up by the worlds best around him.

32mil on Higuain would have done MASSIVELY more for us than 42mil on Ozil. We've spent plenty, our wage spend is huge, we could have a far better squad for the money we have spent. That is all that matters, not how good someone elses squad is.

In terms of City/Chelsea spending, you have to remember that vast amounts of what they have spent has been wasted, players who barely appear, if at all, and are shipped out for massive losses sometimes only a year later. Their spending isn't a reflection of their squad strength. If City had spent say 700million by now, then probably 300mil of it has already been moved on.

LIke I said, I don't care about other teams spending, it doesn't effect how good or bad our own spending has been. We've been buying the wrong players, the man choosing those players is responsible, that man is Wenger.
 
Stats say otherwise mate..

http://www.transferleague.co.uk/league-tables/transfer-league-table-last-five-seasons.html

Can you comment on the link i just posted, or will you ignore it? i dare say, you will ignore

Your stats don't say anything, so what am I commenting on? Net spend means nothing at all. He's spent 188million and he could have spent that 188million on anyone. I don't think he's spent it well, and transfer spending is a small amount of the money we've "spent". I don't know the exact wage figures but I'd say over the past 5 years it would average around 120-130mil, so we've spent 600+million on wages at the same time as that 188million in transfers.

We've gotten pretty lucky in outgoing transfers, 15mil for Song... laughing. Got more than Nasri was worth, got a decent fee for RVP considering his contract situation.

You say stats say otherwise... but don't actually say otherwise to what. You said finances have been choked, yet we've spent an ever increasing amount. What does your stat prove, disprove or even say? That Arsenal aren't spending hugely, yes, so what? Spurs spent 120mil more, but sold about 100mil more as well.

Established teams spend less than teams with new money, wow, we know that, it makes sense.

From the time City started spending Utd had a title winning team that was being paid 150mil a year in wages and they'd spent several hundred million more than City to get to that stage, as had Arsenal.

What has that got to do with the fact that in 5 years(and almost all of it was actually the last three years) we spent 188mil, and that money could have been better spent?
 
There has been precisely no choking of finances, we've spent consistently more. We're predicted to have a 160mil wage spend this year, two years ago it was 143mil. Wenger chooses to have a more balanced wage structure(the majority say between 60-100k rather than at most clubs where some guys are on 20k and some at 250k. He chose to go higher wages and lower transfer spending. He chose to stop offering long deals to older players, no one else but him.

This is the only part of your post that I agree with, the rest is utter rubbish that you've been spoon fed by the media.

Just because one club spends £40mil on a striker doesn't mean you can't get one as good for £2mil or £10mi, or £20mil.

Actually thats exactly what it means. Otherwise everyone would just buy the cheaper player. You can buy a player for £10m, play him for the 2-3 seasons and then have him become a £40m player. But you have to invest those seasons developing him into that player. In fact this is exactly what Arsenal have been doing!

On almost every occasion we've spent, it's looked mostly like poor business. Ozil was a shocker, no chance in hell he'd be worth 42mil, seen him play for 5 years and has never ever looked more than a 15-20mil player and that was when propped up by the worlds best around him.

Ozil is one of the top midfielders in the world. He is worth every penny of £42m. The fact you say his signing was a shocker demonstrates how little you know. The majority of players take a season to adapt before they start to hit form, with very few exceptions. Ozil will pay off and next year you'll have conveniently forgotten your current opinion.

32mil on Higuain would have done MASSIVELY more for us than 42mil on Ozil. We've spent plenty, our wage spend is huge, we could have a far better squad for the money we have spent. That is all that matters, not how good someone elses squad is.

I agree on the point of Higuain being a better signing for us over Ozil but only because we desperately needed a striker more than a midfielder. However we missed out on Higuain for a very good reason. We found out Suarez had a buyout clause of 40m which we activated. No one is going to tell me that Suarez who is already a proven premiership player would not have been a better signing than Higuain. Liverpool screwed us over by not accepting the offer even though they were contractually obliged to. You can't blame Wenger for that. Unfortunately this did mean we missed out on Higuain but how could anyone know that Liverpool would play dirty and do what they did?
 
Your stats don't say anything

Of course they do, you're just very stubborn. It's alright to move on a position on know. I've said every time since i started posted in this forum, Wenger IS NOT the bane of all the problems, there are huge number of factors. Yeah, granted he could have won an FA Cup here and there, maybe a league title, but he hasn't. I asked you this question several times before as well, have you ever worked with the FA, coaching or what not. we start to talk more about finance and stuff, we go through a lot about money, agent fees, structures of wage bills and what not, Wenger is always up there when we talk about it, he's been very good to do what he's done. Keep Arsenal in the top 4 whilst spend 750 mil on a new stadium and facilities. I don't agree with the season tickets though, they are burning people that way to pay off the debt quicker. I think you've said it before in some of your posts, the stadium debt will be paid off by 2022 or something if i can remember correctly, could be 2026 maybe.. Which is awesome really..they'll have a cracking set up for which ever manager comes in next if Wenger decides to leave.

Also, don't just look at the last 5 years table, have a look at the last 10 year one if you want...

2003 to date..
http://www.transferleague.co.uk/league-tables/transfer-league-table-2003-to-date.html
 
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Ozil is one of the top midfielders in the world. He is worth every penny of £42m. The fact you say his signing was a shocker demonstrates how little you know. The majority of players take a season to adapt before they start to hit form, with very few exceptions. Ozil will pay off and next year you'll have conveniently forgotten your current opinion.

Ozil is playing EXACTLY the same way the entirety of this season that he has played for the entire past 5 seasons. There is exactly no difference between his performances last year in his third or fourth year in La Liga than his first year in the EPL. He has ALWAYS been a complete girl, he always backs out of challenges, he's always disappeared in say 9 out of 10 tougher games. This is precisely the player we bought.

Where were you making excuses for Ozil when he was helping put 5 past Norwich. It's convenient that when we played crap teams people were talking about how well he adapted, and how quickly and how brilliant he was yet the second it goes bad suddenly it's all because it's his first year. I've watched a huge number of Real Madrid games in the past 4 years, Ozil is NOT one of the best midfielders in the world. He won't improve because this is the player he is, 42mil is the price you pay precisely for the guys who step UP in the toughest games, not the guys that disappear, that is almost what you would call the fundamental difference between 30Mil + players and those who aren't worth that much.

The way La Liga is, and how good the German team is, that other players create space for him, and crap teams provide plenty of simple goals. I won't forget my opinion, if something actually scares him into trying harder and completely changing his attitude, something 4-5 managers(club and country) in the past 4 years haven't been able to do and thus I don't think it's going to happen, I'll happily admit that. It won't change the player he is today, which is the exact same one anyone who watched all of his performances last year would recognise instantly. The one subbed off in a few games at half time for being utterly anonymous, the one increasingly left out of the biggest games and the one the club felt happiest to cash in on to bring in other players don't forget.

Of course they do, you're just very stubborn. It's alright to move on a position on know. I've said every time since i started posted in this forum, Wenger IS NOT the bane of all the problems, there are huge number of factors. Yeah, granted he could have won an FA Cup here and there, maybe a league title, but he hasn't. I asked you this question several times before as well, have you ever worked with the FA, coaching or what not. we start to talk more about finance and stuff, we go through a lot about money, agent fees, structures of wage bills and what not, Wenger is always up there when we talk about it, he's been very good to do what he's done. Keep Arsenal in the top 4 whilst spend 750 mil on a new stadium and facilities. I don't agree with the season tickets though, they are burning people that way to pay off the debt quicker. I think you've said it before in some of your posts, the stadium debt will be paid off by 2022 or something if i can remember correctly, could be 2026 maybe.. Which is awesome really..they'll have a cracking set up for which ever manager comes in next if Wenger decides to leave.

Also, don't just look at the last 5 years table, have a look at the last 10 year one if you want...

2003 to date..
http://www.transferleague.co.uk/league-tables/transfer-league-table-2003-to-date.html

I'm not stubborn, you posted the stats but didn't actually make a point, so your stat doesn't say anything. Arsenal spent less than other teams... and.... next requires a point. "this proves Arsenal are spending less than they were", nope it proves they spent less than other teams in transfer spending alone, not total spend and doesn't indicate how much they could spend. "this proves Arsenal are doing brilliantly for the money spent" nope, doesn't prove that either. Arsenal still have a wage spend nearly 60mil higher than Spurs, yet almost the same net spend. We've massively outspent the majority of those teams listed with transfer + wage spending.

When you keep Diaby around sucking 3mil a year doing nothing, it adds up. Now have 10 players like that and you're peeing away 30mil a year that could otherwise be spent on a single big transfer every year. With Arsenal the issue isn't that we'd have a weaker squad, we had a bloated squad of players who Wenger was basically ignoring.

We've had plenty of cheap players that Wenger has given huge wages, wasting 100's of mils on over the years who never contributed. We got Chamakh, had disaster written all over it. Rather than pay 8mil for him and give him 40k a year a player of his frankly lack of quality deserved, we gave him 80k/4mil a year for 4 years AND we all but refused to use him.

Your stats don't say anything because you literally didn't link it to an actual point.

Transfer spending doesn't mean much of anything. If we bought someone on the cheap and kept them around not playing for 5-8 years costing 20mil... that is bad business, nothing more or less. We finally ditched something like 17 players in the summer, who were sucking down a HUGE amount of cash every year, and the massive majority of them were basically not used at all. Wenger has been keeping players around 5 years beyond he should have and that has cost the club a HUGE amount of money that could have been spent elsewhere.
 
All doom and gloom I see lol

Personally it's been an exciting year considering most people thought we would be mid table by now. Still time for that lol

But up until the last few months we had a very good season but fell short. Got knocked out of CL by BM. And injuries have taken their toll.

Still have the FA Cup to hope for and think the team will stick together for another season. A few good buyers in the summer and think we could go the extra mile next season.

Considering we are up against teams like city and chelski who can buy that instant success I'm surprised anyone wins anything other than those two. Despite what some might say its not a level playing field.

I don't see how a change of manager will help when we are punching above our weight for the players we have. I said at the start that if we avoided injury we could win something this year and until our injuries we were on course for that.

Still might happen...
 
We haven't lost games due to lack of money though and that is the point.

A club can spend 42million on a crap midfielder, and another club can't afford to spend more than 20mil. If the club with more money buys a bad player then having more money meant nothing. City and Chelsea do have better squads, but largely because they have more money they have been less careful and wasted huge amounts of what they have spent.

We didn't get crushed by Chelsea because they have more money, we got crushed because we needlessly stuck with two crap fullbacks for years giving them millions in wages, when we could have sold them and bought others which we absolutely had money for. What level of fullbacks could we have got for 42mil/2 in summer? We didn't have to play Giroud, we didn't have to buy him nor keep him, he's crap. If we had bought a real striker we'd have been better against Chelsea. If we'd bought an actual out and out DM rather than Arteta, we'd be better. The list goes on and on.

If we'd tactically gone... it's Chelsea, they are really rather good, maybe our fullbacks shouldn't be in the opposition half before the ball makes it there... maybe they shouldn't bomb forwards at all in incredibly difficult fixtures... we wouldn't have been as crap.

I'm completely fed up with Arsenal fans using money as an excuse for the utter ineptitude on show by Wenger.

Because City/Chelsea have more money, it's okay to tactically ignore CHelsea's strength out wide, and it's okay for Gibbs to be 20-30 yards ahead of the ball, for no reason which led to almost every attack from Chelsea coming through Gibbs shaped hole at left back?

He's proven woeful in every such game, and Wenger has failed to try alternative tactics against such teams, and we lose those games. In 8 years of failure Wenger hasn't attempted to win those games.

At NO stage were we on course, we had merely not played the several difficult spells of games yet. You can't go "we're on course" because we get a run against the bottom 8 and get lots of points, but had a run of 4 top 8 games coming up. In each "difficult" game spell we've been spanked.

Our injuries are largely Wenger's fault, with most predictable. Ramsey, who is a bit of a sick note, was played without rest till injured. Ozil was played without rest till injured, Walcott came back from injury and was played without rest till injured.... notice a pattern?

Did we need to play our first team against Norwich and Palace before the couple big games after that? Other teams rotate, rest and protect players. Those managers that haven't tend to get problems. Aguero was overplayed, got injured, came back and immediately played. They played him in a needless cup game before playing him again in the next game or two before he picked his hamstring injury back up. It's a fairly predictable outcome and Wenger walks in to it every single year. It took longer this year but the outcome was assured.

We have not once punched above our weight, and money is absolutely not the reason we've lost the big games, tactics, mentality, woeful team choice and refusal to replace players who CLEARLY aren't good enough.

Instead of selling Gibbs or letting him move on, we gave him a new increased contract.... despite being incapable of defending. For some reason the incorrect red card against Chelsea meant almost no one blamed him for the first 3 goals which were 80% his fault. He was MILES out of position for each one which left the rest of the defence scrambling, out of position covering, and with at least one less defender than there should have been. He is absolutely woeful defensively... so we gave him a new and significantly increased contract. Money isn't our problem, it isn't in our top 10 problems.
 
So in theory, everyone is wrong about Wenger but DM the oracle is right.

Glad we got that out of the way.
 
Tbh Arsenal have shown they have a good enough squad and system of play to beat about 80% of the league about 80% of the time, hence the consistent Top 4 qualification and have remained competitive with teams who have vastly out-spent them, particularly so in the second-half of Wenger's career with Chelsea's outlay being around a billion pounds (2.5 Emirates stadiums) greater and City rapidly approaching that amount.

I think there is criticism due for a bit of mental weakness in the cups, (Barca CL final and that other cup final a couple years agowhich escapes me, with those two trophies I think apart from DM there would be much less bitching) but overall they are doing about as expected and perhaps even marginally over-achieved mainly due to the ineptness of Liverpool and Spurs, with the former being mitigated by their CL win and the latter just being Spurs :p
 
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We have been consistently much closer to Utd's spending than Spurs/Everton have been to our spending.... last year there was around a 20mil gap to Utd and a 50-60million gap to Spurs.... who were we closer to. We haven't been vastly outspent by those above us, outspent sure, but the gap between our spend and Spurs/Everton is much much bigger and just goes to show which group we have been most closely competitive with.

Irrespective of spend you can look all around Europe including the EPL to see examples of teams hitting financially well above their weight. The difference is the financially weak teams aren't consistent and cant' win things consistently but they usually drop in and out of competitiveness. We both haven't been genuinely competitive for ages, despite having a spend much closer to the three above us than the three below us. MANY teams below us in the league have managed great cup runs, all the teams above us manage great cup runs most years. again our quality/consistency/competitiveness in cups matches or is beaten by teams running half the budget, or less, while we come no where near what our spending suggests.

City/Chelsea/Utd get to finals every other year at worst pretty much Arsenal have gotten to one, and lost it. Brum/Swansea/Spurs/Wigan have all gotten to one final in the same time frame, several of those actually won it.

The fundamental issue is not money, it's poor managerial choices.

Gibbs can't defend, yet starts every game, we've bought two crap LB's in the past 4 years as replacements, one so bad he was shipped out after a year. Wenger can't spot a good defender any more, and is overpaying for the wrong people. He thinks Giroud is top class, he thinks Gibbs is a good defender, he's trying to hold on to Sagna who also can't defend.
 
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