What did maggie do?

[Visage]

Labour took a very good economy and have blown it.
People don't seem to realise this yet.
Give it 5 years and I think everyone will be cursing the day Brown took the chancellors office.

Weren't people saying that 5 years ago?

 

[afraser2k]

Labour took a very good economy and have blown it.
People don't seem to realise this yet.
Give it 5 years and I think everyone will be cursing the day Brown took the chancellors office.

I already do thanks to the way the pensions have been dealt with, the high council tax, house and oil/utility prices. You can see from the recent reports of worrying high-street sales trends that people are starting to cut back on spending thanks to ever-increasing bills.

 

[dirtydog]

I already do thanks to the way the pensions have been dealt with, the high council tax, house and oil/utility prices. You can see from the recent reports of worrying high-street sales trends that people are starting to cut back on spending thanks to ever-increasing bills.

Some of that isn't specifically down to Brown, eg. house prices. That is due to mass immigration and the fact that Labour builds less council houses than we did under Margaret Thatcher!!

 

[VIRII]

Weren't people saying that 5 years ago?

5 years ago Ken Clarkes spending plan ran out so Brown had to fly solo.
People were justifiably nervous.
I think we are now at the brink and the full effect will take 5 years to show. It is like a ripple effect eventually creating a tidal wave, i think the ripple has started.
I hope I am wrong but if not I think I have done all I can to ensure we don't lose ourhouse etc as a result.

 

[VIRII]

Some of that isn't specifically down to Brown, eg. house prices. That is due to mass immigration and the fact that Labour builds less council houses than we did under Margaret Thatcher!!

As well as low interest rates, the effect of the dual income family, people moving intot he SE corner from all over the UK, Govt refusal to do anything to stop people borrowing against perceived value in the house.
Rising house prices led to the high street boom as people borrowed against low interest rates - the Govt liked it because it made the economy look good.
Everything has a price, it is time to pay.

 

[Visage]

5 years ago Ken Clarkes spending plan ran out so Brown had to fly solo.
People were justifiably nervous.
I think we are now at the brink and the full effect will take 5 years to show. It is like a ripple effect eventually creating a tidal wave, i think the ripple has started.
I hope I am wrong but if not I think I have done all I can to ensure we don't lose ourhouse etc as a result.

But the point is that no-one knows.

The thread started with a discussion about Thatcher. Now that most of your arguments have been shown to be specious, you've resorted to 'Well she's not as bad as Labour', and even that argument is based on what may, or may not happen over the next 5 years....

Its not the most convincing of arguments.

 

[dirtydog]

As well as low interest rates, the effect of the dual income family, people moving intot he SE corner from all over the UK, Govt refusal to do anything to stop people borrowing against perceived value in the house.
Rising house prices led to the high street boom as people borrowed against low interest rates - the Govt liked it because it made the economy look good.
Everything has a price, it is time to pay.

It's a number of things. It's also the rental market in this country is so slanted in favour of landlords that people don't want to rent, because they have no security of tenure for more than six months or a year at a time. How can you call it 'your home' when you may be evicted every six months. Other countries have a more balanced system which means that buying a property isn't so imperative compared to renting. Not to mention that other countries have lower rents than us.

As for the government refusing to intervene to stop people borrowing against their house - I thought you supported right wing free market economics? To intervene would be something a socialist government might do.

I recognise that low interest rates and inflation is a double-edged sword. People should be careful what they wish for, because those who wished for that have got it at the expense of sky high housing costs.

 

[Sputnik II]

The best thing she did by far. This is a GLOBAL economy and we are competing with GLOBAL businesses. We can not stop a foreign firm setting up competition to Royal Mail or British Telecom or gas, electric, water or anything else.
Thank god our companies were shipshape before that global competition became a serious threat.

Then maybe you would like to inform us why the government put millions of pounds of tax payers money into a rail network that they sold off? Surely if its been sold off it should have to support itself or be sold to another company that can make it work efficiently?
Or, maybe Its just like the congestion charge in london which costs heaps more to enforce than it makes so the government throw truck loads of money to Red Ken to keep it going. Does anyone remember him giving out money to local bus companies etc. on the launch of the CC with him saying it was money that the CC was going to make ?

I'm a strong fan of Thatcher and always will look at her as the best PM of my lifetime until/if we ever get someone better.

Just out of interest, how old was half of you when thatcher was in power ?

 

[Mr Jack]

Not all of those were dine under her Govt or even under Tory Govts.

All the ones I mentioned were done under the last Tory government, although you are correct that the Railways were privatised under John Major not Maggie - my bad - although she did set the ground work for that privatisation.

Why do people insist on saying "she undermined the fabric of our communities and is responsible for the rise of **** behaviour". That is rubbish.

Actually I said she contributed to it. Maggie certainly acted to undermine strong community spirits and tight social bonding; she herself denied the existence of society arguing there were only families. Strong communities are a more effective means of maintaining social order than heavy handed discipline and help allow softer methods of discipline. Her education reforms, in particular, encouraged education to be viewed as a sevice rather than a privilage and thus undermined the supportive parent-teacher relationship that is vital to maintaining school discipline.

These aren't, of course, the only factors involved but they are important ones.

 

[VIRII]

But the point is that no-one knows.

The thread started with a discussion about Thatcher. Now that most of your arguments have been shown to be specious, you've resorted to 'Well she's not as bad as Labour', and even that argument is based on what may, or may not happen over the next 5 years....

Its not the most convincing of arguments.

ROFL.
None of my arguments have been shown to be specious or fallacious for that matter
The unions screwed the country with short term greed, Thatcher took them out and we have benefitted as a result.
Poll tax is fairer than council tax as a principle.

What else do you think you've proven ? I see nothing convincing in any of your arguments. Also if you care to read the thread you'll find that it is not me who moved the debate away from unions to local taxes.

 

[VIRII]

Actually I said she contributed to it. Maggie certainly acted to undermine strong community spirits and tight social bonding; she herself denied the existence of society arguing there were only families. Strong communities are a more effective means of maintaining social order than heavy handed discipline and help allow softer methods of discipline. Her education reforms, in particular, encouraged education to be viewed as a sevice rather than a privilage and thus undermined the supportive parent-teacher relationship that is vital to maintaining school discipline.

These aren't, of course, the only factors involved but they are important ones.

Compared to the debacle that Labour have created with their social reforms it was nothing. "Tough on crime , tough on the causes of crime" - yeah right.

The rise of the single mum, the rise of the undiciplined kid, the lack of respect and fear - all Tonys babies I am afraid.

I fear we are turning GD into SC though.

 

[dirtydog]

I fear we are turning GD into SC though.

Intelligent discussion is allowed here Although you're right that the only people who are posting now are SC regulars, I think we've scared the rest off

 

[afraser2k]

Intelligent discussion is allowed here

Since when?

<inserts 1337 speak to annoy all>

 

[vanpeebles]

what about the tory lets get back to victorian morals plan?

 

[dirtydog]

what about the tory lets get back to victorian morals plan?

Back to basics!

 

[Mr Jack]

Labour took a very good economy and have blown it.
People don't seem to realise this yet.
Give it 5 years and I think everyone will be cursing the day Brown took the chancellors office.

I think that's part truth and part not.

Brown has done a very good job of running the economy, let's not forget that we've ridden out a major economic downturn with barely a ripple through our economy. Of course, Brown's major success was creating an independent central bank so, in many ways, it is they rather than Brown who deserve the credit.

However, the spending plans for the coming years are out of whack and Brown has nerfed on his promises of prudence in the coming years instead choosing to fiddle his own rules on the "economic cycle" to give him room to spend more. We're facing lower GDP growth in the coming years, probably in the region of 1.5% - this is not the time to be raising spending. Perhaps worse, is the spiralling level of red tape that is seriously beginning to undermine the viability of small businesses.

As for falling high street spending. Well, that's not such a bad thing as it seems. Economists have been warning for some time that people were over-spending and not saving enough and that we're were in danger of overheating and then crashing. That seems to have been avoided, but if Brown raises taxes - and it seems he must if he is to stick to the spending plans - then there's a real danger of our Economy going into reverse.

 

[Mr Jack]

Compared to the debacle that Labour have created with their social reforms it was nothing. "Tough on crime , tough on the causes of crime" - yeah right.

The rise of the single mum, the rise of the undiciplined kid, the lack of respect and fear - all Tonys babies I am afraid.

Could we possibly talk about this without shifting so far into Labour bashing?

 

[VIRII]

Could we possibly talk about this without shifting so far into Labour bashing?

I do not know. I guess the further truth is stretched in the pursuit of Thatcher bashing the less capable I am of with holding my abhorrence of Blair.

 

[VIRII]

Back to basics!

Could he have been any more basic ? He was chastised for being boring for goodness sake. The fundamental ideals of back to basics and common sense and old fashioned values is sound. It however requires someoneof political magnitude to make them happen, we need Magie back.

 

[VIRII]

I think that's part truth and part not.

Brown has done a very good job of running the economy, let's not forget that we've ridden out a major economic downturn with barely a ripple through our economy. Of course, Brown's major success was creating an independent central bank so, in many ways, it is they rather than Brown who deserve the credit.

However, the spending plans for the coming years are out of whack and Brown has nerfed on his promises of prudence in the coming years instead choosing to fiddle his own rules on the "economic cycle" to give him room to spend more. We're facing lower GDP growth in the coming years, probably in the region of 1.5% - this is not the time to be raising spending. Perhaps worse, is the spiralling level of red tape that is seriously beginning to undermine the viability of small businesses.

As for falling high street spending. Well, that's not such a bad thing as it seems. Economists have been warning for some time that people were over-spending and not saving enough and that we're were in danger of overheating and then crashing. That seems to have been avoided, but if Brown raises taxes - and it seems he must if he is to stick to the spending plans - then there's a real danger of our Economy going into reverse.

We have ridden nothing out. He has fuelled spending with people borrowing. He has simply delayed the inevitable. He has not managed the economy whatsoever. Ahh we have a problem, GDP is down, companies can't compete we need to keep people employed. I know lets get them to borrow against their houses so they have cash to spend and we'll worry about what happens when they can't borow any more later. Great management.

Is that how you would manage your finances at home ? Just borrow until you can't get more credit and worry about it later ?

There has been no overheating, inflation has not moved.