What’s going on with our justice system?

Again? Well, why not.

In UK law, murder requires premediation with sanity.

It's not a nuance. It's really rather clear. Most of the people in this thread understand it.

If you were to argue that the law should be changed so that sanity isn't required, that would be one thing. But that's not what you're arguing for.


And you're still deliberately ignoring the sentencing. Which, in case anyone hasn't noticed, was life imprisonment. The same as for murder.


She's probably less likely to get parole at any point because she wasn't convicted of murder. If she had been convicted of murder, it would have been a formal declaration that she was sane. Sane people are much more likely to get parole than dangerously insane people.

I'm saying that a level of sanity was demonstrated in respect that she armed herself with a deadly weapon, went to a location where she was likely to find a target. She then targeted a child who could not have possibly defended the attack.

She also inflicted a particular type of wound that would surely have virtually no chance of survival.

Someone who was completely insane would surely not be able to complete this complex chain of events.

Whether the act of committing murder is a sane act or not is debateable.

But I am beyond doubt that a complex through process and a deliberateness to succeed in the act was demonstrated that it could only have been conducted by someone in control of their actions.
 
. . . . I am beyond doubt that a complex through process and a deliberateness to succeed in the act was demonstrated that it could only have been conducted by someone in control of their actions.
You are aware of course that someone who is unhinged, lacks insight, compassion, empathy, etc. may well be entirely capable of careful planning may be disinterested in all the consequences of their actions, aren't you?
 
You are aware of course that someone who is unhinged, lacks insight, compassion, empathy, etc. may well be entirely capable of careful planning may be disinterested in all the consequences of their actions, aren't you?

They might be disinterested but doesn't mean they aren't aware.

They may even feign indifference to the result but it takes a strategic and tactical maneuvering showing a cognitive presence to conduct the attack therefore it should be treated as murder.

An example of what I could deem a non murder would be

Woman in bedroom, banging on door in dark, someone bursts in, she grabs something from the dressing table and stabs the person.

Finds out its her sister trying to wake her up for a hospital appointment.

I could accept that.
 
Woman in bedroom, banging on door in dark, someone bursts in, she grabs something from the dressing table and stabs the person.

Finds out its her sister trying to wake her up for a hospital appointment.

I could accept that.

Sounds a bit like an Oscar Pastorius excuse :)

Although I know Angilion & Stockhausen are correct you do make some good points.
 
Sounds a bit like an Oscar Pastorius excuse :)

Although I know Angilion & Stockhausen are correct you do make some good points.

The difference with Oscar is that he would have known there was no one in the bed next to him, and no one banged on the door or approached him.

Not many women go to the toilet in the dark, so the light would be on and anyone with a brain knows that a burglar wouldn't turn the bathroom light on if they were about to commit a crime.
 
What I mean is other than her story what evidence was gathered? Her blood being present it could have been time of the month. That alone isn't enough.

The person who walked in who is a key eyewitness. What exactly was his statement. They would be crucial in getting a conviction. I think that would be the key evidence because otherwise it's his word against hers. Unfortunately that's how the law works.

His story could be we had a few drinks went back and had sex and the next day she regretted it and is now calling it rape.

I think it would be fairly easy for the victim to know whether it was their time of the month... haway. I believe they did give a statement, but I don't know what it was, as that's how the part about being carried back was put into the case. The victim doesn't recall any of this so the witness must have provided this information.

If what you say about the people carrying her back is true again this is crucial evidence that she wasn't in a fit state again key eye witnesses who could testify in her ability to consent.

Did any of these people make a statement?
I believe one of the people who carried her back was the key-witness

If they did then I would think about taking all this evidence and statements and make an appeal to a higher level of possible or an alternative court.

The case has been appealed as far as it was allowed with the funds available. The victim has essentially given up hope and doesn't want to waste any more time or money on it, accepting that she's become simply another statistic of failed justice.

I find it hard to believe with sufficient evidence someone would say rape is okay drop the case. The main key evidence would be the person who walked in on the act. Their statement is crucial and I believe an open and shut case. Or did they simply open the door see him on top for a split second and do a U-turn without actually really seeing what was happening?

As do we all, which is why we're so surprised there has been no conviction, and their reasoning for not taking it to court gives such pitiful reasons. The key-witness was a close female friend, so highly unlikely to have just turned around and walked out.
 
I'm saying that a level of sanity was demonstrated in respect that she armed herself with a deadly weapon, went to a location where she was likely to find a target. She then targeted a child who could not have possibly defended the attack.

She also inflicted a particular type of wound that would surely have virtually no chance of survival.

Someone who was completely insane would surely not be able to complete this complex chain of events.

Whether the act of committing murder is a sane act or not is debateable.

But I am beyond doubt that a complex through process and a deliberateness to succeed in the act was demonstrated that it could only have been conducted by someone in control of their actions.

Ah, so it's about what constitutes sanity.

I am in no doubt that the ability to plan is not proof of sanity. I'll use a harmless hypothetical scenario as an illustration.

In this scenario, I become aware that demons are intending to invade and overwhelm the world on the Ides of March 2021 and will use the pond in my neighbour's garden as the portal to enter the world. I know this is true because an angel appeared in the water in my shower and told me about it. Angels don't lie, so what the angel told me must be true. Reasoning, rationality, evidence. My position is very well grounded and makes perfect sense. People have long known that water is a place of power, a potential portal between planes of existence. People knew that at least as far back as the bronze age. We know that - archaeologists have found ample evidence of it. My position is scientific. I am completely rational. Also, where did the angel appear to me? That's right - in water! QED, QE absolutely D.

The angel has a plan, of course. God told them what to do and of course God has a plan! The portal must be blocked before the Ides of March in order to prevent the demons using it to enter the world. But it has to be done right. This isn't some haphazard nonsense or silly mystical blathering. It requires clear-headed logical and evidence-based reasoning. Which is why a human was chosen, of course. That makes sense. So what's needed is a mixture of 11 parts earth to 1 part iron oxide. Earth to bind the potential portal point to Earth, preventing it from being used as a portal. That makes sense. Iron because it repels supernatural entities. That makes sense. Oxygen because it's the substance of mortal life and thus anathema to demons, so oxygen bonded with iron would be particularly effective against demons. Of course! It all makes sense. It's completely rational and based on solid evidence.

I have several months, so I do what's needed. No rush. Keep calm, get the job done. Remember, the whole reason a human was chosen was for the human ability of rational thought and reasoning. I must stay calm, keep it together and quietly get ready. Search online to obtain the necessary materials. Earth and iron oxide, not a problem. Earth is all over the place. There's plenty in my back garden. Iron oxide can be bought in bulk online. It's harmless and has various uses. Some scales for weighing, to make sure I get the mixture correct. Buy those online too. Some bags to keep the correct mixture in. Buy those online too. Make a list, make a plan. Remember why a human was chosen.

The items arrive. I mix the earth and iron oxide together, making sure to do a thorough job. I plan how to move the bags of the mixture into my neighbour's garden and fill in their garden pond without anyone noticing before I've finished. And one night in February I do just that. Success! The world is saved!


I was rational. I made a plan. I implemented the plan, a complex chain of events over a period of weeks. And I was glaringly, blatantly insane. Full on delusional, hallucinating, the whole nine yards.
 
Like what? Like jailing someone for life if they deliberately kill someone? You know, like what happened in this case?

Simple:

Any crime involving a weapon such as a knife or gun (ie there is an attempt to kill) is murder or attempted murder should the victim survive.

(Unless the killer is trying to resist an attack and picks up a near weapon or disarm the attacker amd uses said weapon or has fear of their life)

Minimum for murder is life, life being minimum 35 years.

Attempted murder is 66% of life.

For good behaviour you get out in 35 years.

For bad behaviour you get out in 35 years + additional for the behavioural issues.

For people murdering multiple people, or attempted murder of multiple people you get consecutive sentences for each crime.


As we know offenders have a 50% reoffend rate, instead if giving someone 7 years for stabbing someone and they are out in 3-4 years, make them serve a proper sentence befitting the crime and they won't be out till they are 50-70 years old.

So easy. And so much more just to the victims.
 
Simple:

Any crime involving a weapon such as a knife or gun (ie there is an attempt to kill) is murder or attempted murder should the victim survive.

(Unless the killer is trying to resist an attack and picks up a near weapon or disarm the attacker amd uses said weapon or has fear of their life)

Minimum for murder is life, life being minimum 35 years.

Attempted murder is 66% of life.

For good behaviour you get out in 35 years.

For bad behaviour you get out in 35 years + additional for the behavioural issues.

For people murdering multiple people, or attempted murder of multiple people you get consecutive sentences for each crime.


As we know offenders have a 50% reoffend rate, instead if giving someone 7 years for stabbing someone and they are out in 3-4 years, make them serve a proper sentence befitting the crime and they won't be out till they are 50-70 years old.

So easy. And so much more just to the victims.

Didn't realise it's now a crime to defend yourself.

Sounds legit.
 
He said:
Unless the killer is trying to resist an attack and picks up a near weapon or disarm the attacker and uses said weapon or has fear of their life.

No he said

"Any crime involving a weapon such as a knife or gun (ie there is an attempt to kill) is murder or attempted murder should the victim survive.

(Unless the killer is trying to resist an attack and picks up a near weapon or disarm the attacker amd uses said weapon or has fear of their life)"

So therefore for the "Unless the killer is trying to resist an attack" to apply they must have committed "any crime" also.

Therefore he's saying that defending yourself is a crime but if you kill someone doing that it's an exception under his law.
 
Simple:

Any crime involving a weapon such as a knife or gun (ie there is an attempt to kill) is murder or attempted murder should the victim survive.

(Unless the killer is trying to resist an attack and picks up a near weapon or disarm the attacker amd uses said weapon or has fear of their life)

Minimum for murder is life, life being minimum 35 years.

Attempted murder is 66% of life.

For good behaviour you get out in 35 years.

For bad behaviour you get out in 35 years + additional for the behavioural issues.

For people murdering multiple people, or attempted murder of multiple people you get consecutive sentences for each crime.


As we know offenders have a 50% reoffend rate, instead if giving someone 7 years for stabbing someone and they are out in 3-4 years, make them serve a proper sentence befitting the crime and they won't be out till they are 50-70 years old.

So easy. And so much more just to the victims.

Simple, yes. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's right. Your final sentence is just a false appeal to authority, no better than the Southpark cliche lampooning exactly that tactic - "VOTE PROP 10 OR YOU HATE CHILDREN!"

I will ignore it. It's a rather unpleasant thing for you (or anyone) to do.

You're making at least two different definitions and an extremely unclear definition in the opening sentence, which is an extremely bad basis for law.

Is murder any crime involving a weapon (your first definition) or an attempt to kill (your second definition)? They're very different things. For example, many people have one or more knives with a blade more than 7.62cm long and/or with a fixed blade in their kitchen. Taking that knife out of their home is a crime involving a weapon. Under your first definition, that would make them guilty of attempted murder solely for carrying it. If they're taking it to a friend's house to carve a joint of roast beef, your first definition makes them guilty of attempted murder and they must serve at least 35 years in jail. Another example - it's legal to own a gun with the appropriate firearm licence, but there are numerous restrictions. Person A has a licence for a .22 rifle they use at a registered sports shooting club for target shooting. They have 2 safes in their house. Both safes conform to regulations. Both safes are in places in their home that conform to regulations. They scrupulously keep only the unloaded rifle in one safe and only the ammunition in the other safe. Their licence allows them to own 100 bullets. They buy 100 bullets. Legally, from a licenced source. But they had forgotten that they had 20 bullets in their ammunution safe at home. So they now own 120 bullets, which is more than their licence allows. Under your first definition, they are now guilty of attempted murder and they must serve at least 35 years in jail.

And yes, you did explicitly specify that attempted murder would have a minimum 35 year sentence under your regime. Note that your statement "For good behaviour you get out in 35 years" comes after your sentencing for attempted murder and thus applies to it. "66% of life" is meaningless because it's impossible to know in advance how long a person would live. Under your regime, time travel would be required in order to release people you convicted of attempted murder at what you regard as being the right time, if they were to live long enough for 66% of their remaining life to be more than 35 years.

Your second definition is better as it at least requires intent, but all you're doing is removing the manslaughter categories (which exist for good reasons) and the ability of a judge to set a minimum amount of time before parole can be even considered (which exists for good reasons).

Regardless of which of your two completely different definitions of murder you actually meant, there's the issue of the weapon used. You specified "a weapon such as a knife or gun". So it wouldn't apply to a weapon not like a knife or a gun. Which leads to another problem - how alike does the weapon have to be. A sword? Is that enough like a knife? How about a spear? That's not really like a knife at all. Or a club? That's not at all like a knife or gun.

On to your allowed defence against a murder conviction, in which the defendent is only allowed to use a weapon which happened to be nearby. How near is near? A metre? Two metres? You need to specify things if you're writing laws.

You've also explicitly forbidden defence of others, since you've explicitly stated that only a person being attacked would be allowed to pick up a nearby weapon or disarm the attacker. Say, for example, you were being attacked by someone with a knife and I was nearby. Under your regime, I wouldn't be allowed to intervene because I'm not being attacked. I'm not in fear of my life. I could run away while they killed you. Under your regime, that would be the best course of action.


Here's a real example from UK law:

Person A was known to be a very dangerous person. B and C were in a house when A turned up with the intention of killing them both, an intention which A repeatedly made extremely clear. B and C knew A to be very dangerous and had every reason to believe that A would indeed kill them if A got in, as A was repeatedly and explicitly stating they were going to do. B shot A through a window as A was in the process of breaking into the house to kill B and C. The gun B used was licenced. This, of course, meant that B had to open two seperate safes, load the weapon and then go to within line of sight of the window to fire. It was not a weapon they picked up while being attacked.


Under your regime, B is guilty of murder and must spend at least 35 years in jail. Under UK law, B was tried and acquitted on the grounds of reasonable force in defence. It went to trial because the authorities deemed it to be a grey area without legal precedent and therefore needing a trial by jury.
 
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