What’s going on with our justice system?

Yes I did a double take at that. If, as I would assume should happen she will never be released, why give an 8 year minimum term!
Or are they going to say she's all better and let her out again...

If she looks okay in 8 years and has been good then yes there is a real possibility that they would be out in public.

I'm hoping whoever does the review in 8 years time has young children or grandchildren.
 
Minimum 8 years! **** off!. What a joke.
Yes I did a double take at that. If, as I would assume should happen she will never be released, why give an 8 year minimum term!
Or are they going to say she's all better and let her out again...

Judges have to give a minimum, a recommendation, and a maximum*.
You can basically ignore the minimum in most reports on sentencing because it's the recommended one that is worked to, whilst the maximum is there to give a final date (assuming no further offences are committed whilst in prison).

You can get a minimum that the law states is only say 5 years, the Judge might recommend 20 years, and the maximum that the offence carries in the sentencing guidelines.

In this case 8 years is probably the minimum the law says could possibly be correct, but it's a life sentence so could be 50 years.
Given she's an obvious danger and in a secure mental facility I suspect the minimum is not applicable in reality and she's going to be in there for much if not all the rest of her life.
The 8 years is basically if she improves tomorrow and is perfectly fine after that, what's far more likely is that they'll never trust her enough to consider any form of release without massive supervision (which by the sounds of it is what she should have been on already), and that might be 10-20 years away.


*If you ever pay attention to reporting in the papers they'll often play up the maximum sentence if they think someone is being dealt with harshly, whilst playing up the minimum one if they think someone deserves it.
 
Those frothing at the mouth about the failings of the British Judicial system will be reassured to hear that Eltiona Skana, 30, a paranoid schizophrenic with a long history of mental illness, will serve her sentence in a high-security hospital having been sentenced to life imprisonment with a minimum of eight years.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...for-life-for-killing-seven-year-old-in-bolton

Too little too late, and the fact that it hasn't been convicted as murder is just a kick in the face to the victims family.
 
Too little too late, and the fact that it hasn't been convicted as murder is just a kick in the face to the victims family.

The fact that the murder charge failed is only a "kick in the face" for people who don't understand what murder means in law in the UK (and most other countries). The outcome would have been the same anyway - life sentence.

What would you regard as having been enough?

I wonder, if the father had wrestled the knife off her, slit her throat and killed her would he get a murder charge?

That would depend on whether the killing was done in defence or in revenge and on how political it became. Also, of course, a charge isn't a conviction. That would be a different question. A person would have to go quite a long way into revenge to get convicted of murder, especially nowadays with all the frothing fury about people not being allowed to ambush and shoot people dead or gather a posse, hunt them down and beat them to death. And no, that's not hyperbole. It's two real cases. Tony Martin and Munir Hussain (who served less than a month in prison for attempted revenge murder as a result of the power of wannabee vigilante murderers who rage about how terribly unfair it is that they're not allowed to carry out honour killings in revenge).
 
I wonder, if the father had wrestled the knife off her, slit her throat and killed her would he get a murder charge?
I suspect that the Father would (quite rightly) be charged with something. The scenario as you have described it involves two stages:
  1. Disarming her by wrestling the knife off her.
  2. Using the knife to slit her throat causing her death.
The first action would be applauded, the second action would be the problem.

c.f. Darryn Frost, Usman Khan, a narwhal tusk and London Bridge a year ago.
 
The fact that the murder charge failed is only a "kick in the face" for people who don't understand what murder means in law in the UK (and most other countries). The outcome would have been the same anyway - life sentence.

What would you regard as having been enough?



That would depend on whether the killing was done in defence or in revenge and on how political it became. Also, of course, a charge isn't a conviction. That would be a different question. A person would have to go quite a long way into revenge to get convicted of murder, especially nowadays with all the frothing fury about people not being allowed to ambush and shoot people dead or gather a posse, hunt them down and beat them to death. And no, that's not hyperbole. It's two real cases. Tony Martin and Munir Hussain (who served less than a month in prison for attempted revenge murder as a result of the power of wannabee vigilante murderers who rage about how terribly unfair it is that they're not allowed to carry out honour killings in revenge).

She's a murderer clear as day.

Murder is defined, at common law rather than by statute, as the unlawful killing of a reasonable person in being under the King or Queen's peace with malice aforethought express or implied.

Tis murder and you all know it.
 
What evidence was there of rape? They could have found fake rape videos on his laptop but that doesn't prove that he raped her.

It was rape because someone who is blacked out drunk, unable to walk, can't consent. Someone else walked into the room to find it happening and the victim proclaimed that she didn't know what was happening. She awoke to find herself naked in the bed with blood (I believe her own) around. The court even used the statement "was still erect when he withdrew" as a reason to reject the appeal as supposedly that means that she could have potentially consented... whilst unconscious. I don't see how anyone could see that being anything but being non-consensual. The victim and the attacker had no previous sexual relationship, just a friendship via mutual friends.


Was he done for the anything related to the images they found? Because sometimes it's easier to drop a harder to prove charge and go for the easy wins with evidence to support.
The victim wasn't in that material, others were however but I'm not sure what arose of that. He was already on a sexual harm prevention order but my understanding he isn't locked up for the additional offences.
 
It was rape because someone who is blacked out drunk, unable to walk, can't consent. Someone else walked into the room to find it happening and the victim proclaimed that she didn't know what was happening. She awoke to find herself naked in the bed with blood (I believe her own) around. The court even used the statement "was still erect when he withdrew" as a reason to reject the appeal as supposedly that means that she could have potentially consented... whilst unconscious. I don't see how anyone could see that being anything but being non-consensual. The victim and the attacker had no previous sexual relationship, just a friendship via mutual friends.



The victim wasn't in that material, others were however but I'm not sure what arose of that. He was already on a sexual harm prevention order but my understanding he isn't locked up for the additional offences.

What I mean is other than her story what evidence was gathered? Her blood being present it could have been time of the month. That alone isn't enough.

The person who walked in who is a key eyewitness. What exactly was his statement. They would be crucial in getting a conviction. I think that would be the key evidence because otherwise it's his word against hers. Unfortunately that's how the law works.

To give you an example there is a famous case in Glasgow where a Scottish gangster walked up to someone in broad daylight in the middle of an extremely busy public place and shot and killed another person.

Everyone knew he did it but they didn't find the weapon. No witnesses came forward because this guy would have wiped out their families. Everyone knew he killed him it wasn't even up for debate but there was zero evidence other than hearsay. No cameras back then.

Otherwise I'm no expert but there would usually be defense wounds in a rape case. But unfortunately if you are blackout drunk your effectively dead and won't be conscious. So there has to be key evidence supporting that. Maybe watch the Netflix documentary I can't recall the name but it's a similar scenario. A young girl gets quite drunk. A few guys convince her to get into a car from the main party and take her second party. This is where she gets blackout drunk and is unconscious. They then I believe do all sorts there or take her to a third property where at least 2 guys rape her.

There wasn't any real hard evidence other than hearsay and pics of her in a terrible state. Someone managed to get access to everyone's social medias and downloaded all the info they needed to make the police do a proper investigation after they dropped the case.

His story could be we had a few drinks went back and had sex and the next day she regretted it and is now calling it rape.

If what you say about the people carrying her back is true again this is crucial evidence that she wasn't in a fit state again key eye witnesses who could testify in her ability to consent.

Did any of these people make a statement?

If they did then I would think about taking all this evidence and statements and make an appeal to a higher level of possible or an alternative court.

I find it hard to believe with sufficient evidence someone would say rape is okay drop the case. The main key evidence would be the person who walked in on the act. Their statement is crucial and I believe an open and shut case. Or did they simply open the door see him on top for a split second and do a U-turn without actually really seeing what was happening?

The Netflix documentary it was extremely hard to get all the evidence together. I believe they had to get people's phones and then data mine them after all the hearsay evidence collected from social media as that wasn't enough.

I believe the photos and videos were key in the conviction. I can't remember exactly but it's a similar type of case where other than her waking up with no knowledge there was no evidence other than her saying I can't remember anything.
 
Perhaps you should substitute the words "Paranoid schizophrenic" for "Woman" and work forward from there?

What does that even mean?

Are people with conditions exempt from breaking the law?

The proof of the crime shows that she was of sound mind enough to act entirely normally like any woman, got dressed, walked to park, picked target, murdered her.

If someone was so unsound of mind that they couldn't be held accountable for their actions I doubt they would be able to function like an average human would likely have stabbed the first person they saw upon leaving their abode.

That she targeted a defenceless child in the park shows a level of determination to complete the act.

And it wasn't a random spasmodic stabbing of someone who triggered her, it was a deliberate act that was calculated and could only reasonably be understood to result in one outcome.

I would say it permissable to take into hear out any mitigation and put that into consideration. But in this case I feel that it wouldn't lessen the sentencing.
 
Woman gets knife, goes to park, chooses victim and kills her.

Please explain which nuances we are not understanding here?

Again? Well, why not.

In UK law, murder requires premediation with sanity.

It's not a nuance. It's really rather clear. Most of the people in this thread understand it.

If you were to argue that the law should be changed so that sanity isn't required, that would be one thing. But that's not what you're arguing for.


And you're still deliberately ignoring the sentencing. Which, in case anyone hasn't noticed, was life imprisonment. The same as for murder.


She's probably less likely to get parole at any point because she wasn't convicted of murder. If she had been convicted of murder, it would have been a formal declaration that she was sane. Sane people are much more likely to get parole than dangerously insane people.
 
What does that even mean?

Are people with conditions exempt from breaking the law?

She was convicted and sentenced to life imprisonment, the harshest sentence allowed in UK law. How on earth are you interpreting that as her being "exempt from breaking the law"?

Seriously, I want to know how you arrive at the conclusion that "convicted and given the harshest sentence allowed in law" means "is exempt from breaking the law".

I would say it permissable to take into hear out any mitigation and put that into consideration. But in this case I feel that it wouldn't lessen the sentencing.

What mitigation? She was sentenced to life imprisonment, the maximum sentence allowed in UK law for any crime. There was no mitigation. There was no lessening of the sentence.
 
She was convicted and sentenced to life imprisonment, the harshest sentence allowed in UK law. How on earth are you interpreting that as her being "exempt from breaking the law"?

Seriously, I want to know how you arrive at the conclusion that "convicted and given the harshest sentence allowed in law" means "is exempt from breaking the law".



What mitigation? She was sentenced to life imprisonment, the maximum sentence allowed in UK law for any crime. There was no mitigation. There was no lessening of the sentence.
No, the harshest sentence would have been life imprisonment without possibility of parole
 
No, the harshest sentence would have been life imprisonment without possibility of parole

Which doesn't really exist as the sentence is still open to review and a prisoner given a whole life tariff can still be released on parole. Also, the sentence is life imprisonment. The possibility of parole doesn't mean being released will happen.
 
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