When are you going fully electric?

[Matthew.M]

maybe they need a smaller more modular battery that can be easily slid in and out, petrol stations can precharge them then swap them out for a refuel fee.

That makes the ownership model very complicated. Do you then rent/lease the battery or swap back to yours on the return journey? What if the battery you swapped to had a lower state of health?

Then you have all the different manufacturers and standards etc. These batteries are very big and very heavy they need to be swapped by lifts and a machine.

Tesla had an automated battery swap station in the US and closed it due to lack of use. People preferred using the supercharger right next door to it.

 

[PaulCa]

That makes the ownership model very complicated. Do you then rent/lease the battery or swap back to yours on the return journey? What if the battery you swapped to had a lower state of health?

Then you have all the different manufacturers and standards etc. These batteries are very big and very heavy they need to be swapped by lifts and a machine.

Tesla had an automated battery swap station in the US and closed it due to lack of use. People preferred using the supercharger right next door to it.

I had the same idea. The ownership model is already demonstrated with the likes of gas cylinders. The rack you slide the battery into would health check the battery while charging it, maybe for example by cycling the batteries overnight. You could pay for it with contactless and thus the machine knows who put what battery in the rack, deteriorating ones could be replaced, fraudulent ones could be traced to the depositor etc.

I would not suggest it as a replacement for the complete electric battery system, but as an additional battery for getting you home if you get caught short. Something the size of a jerry can. The cars would have their own, normal battery, but under the rear boot floor would be one or two of these packs which could be removed and swapped at petrol stations.

 

[LeeUK]

What's even worse about people leaving their car attached to the charger all day, is the council doing it with council owned electric vehicles all weekend. I think they stopped doing it after some heavy complaints but they were leaving them in the ChargeYourCar bays at county hall although not on charge.

 

[bimbleuk]

So BMW are on the verge of offering wireless charging on certain models. It may ultimately be limited in maximum charge rate being 3.2KW in the first iteration but interesting for me anyway with an i3.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

I’ve seen that before, putting aside the practicalities one question I always have is about charging losses.

When you are scaling it up to a full BEV with say a 90-100kw pack they could start becoming a factor vs how easy it is to plug in the a cable.

Edit: just googled it, 5-7% on a 3kw system and an 8” air gap. Not as bad as I thought but it is on top of the useual charging loss.

 

[Matthew.M]

I had the same idea. The ownership model is already demonstrated with the likes of gas cylinders. The rack you slide the battery into would health check the battery while charging it, maybe for example by cycling the batteries overnight. You could pay for it with contactless and thus the machine knows who put what battery in the rack, deteriorating ones could be replaced, fraudulent ones could be traced to the depositor etc.

I would not suggest it as a replacement for the complete electric battery system, but as an additional battery for getting you home if you get caught short. Something the size of a jerry can. The cars would have their own, normal battery, but under the rear boot floor would be one or two of these packs which could be removed and swapped at petrol stations.

These batteries really are massive and very heavy. A jerry can sized battery wouldn’t hold much energy and maybe get the car 5-8miles or so? Not really practical or worth the effort. That model works for scooters and there’s a scooter company doing battery swap As you describe which I think is proving reasonably successful but the energy density isn’t there for cars.

The battery packs take up the entire floor of the car and weigh 100’s of kg even in the short range cars of today. I think a Tesla pack is over 500kg, i3 about 200kg (these are from memory so may be wrong!) but basically a 10-20kg removable pack wouldn’t contain much energy at all.

 

[McPhee]

The charger should msg the owner when the car is charged, and if not unplugged within an hour or two they get a £10 penalty.

This is already a thing.

Polar Ultrachargers have a maximum 2 hour stay. IIRC the fine is £30 if you go over. ChargePoint Genie is 1 hour max stay, and I think a £10 charge for going over? I'm not sure about other networks.

 

[McPhee]

I had the same idea. The ownership model is already demonstrated with the likes of gas cylinders. The rack you slide the battery into would health check the battery while charging it, maybe for example by cycling the batteries overnight. You could pay for it with contactless and thus the machine knows who put what battery in the rack, deteriorating ones could be replaced, fraudulent ones could be traced to the depositor etc.

I would not suggest it as a replacement for the complete electric battery system, but as an additional battery for getting you home if you get caught short. Something the size of a jerry can. The cars would have their own, normal battery, but under the rear boot floor would be one or two of these packs which could be removed and swapped at petrol stations.

It's an idea that has floated around for a long time. Nobody has been successful in implementing it though. Cost is the issue. Even in an ideal world, not every car is going to have a battery of the same shape, size, and capacity. So each station is going to need a fair amount of stock of expensive batteries. Then there's battery health. Who eats the cost of this? Expecting to match the health of the customer's battery at every visit is unrealistic; you'd need an even larger amount of stock at every station. So do you provide a perpetual battery warranty as part of the service? Or do you own all of these batteries and lease them to the customer?

Creating a battery that can be quickly swapped for a fully charged one isn't complicated. It's all of the other problems that prevent this system from taking off. Ultimately, it would be expensive. Which is why every business that has tried to go this route has failed.

 

[DampCat]

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/audi-e-tron-launches-brands-first-electric-only-model

Nice looking car but i have to wonder if putting cameras instead of mirrors is sensible at all. Surely it'll just use power, when we all want range.

And what's wrong with mirrors.

 

[Desmo]

Nice looking car but i have to wonder if putting cameras instead of mirrors is sensible at all. Surely it'll just use power, when we all want range.
And what's wrong with mirrors.

Aerodynamics. You'll probably use more energy pushing wing mirrors through the air than you will powering a camera.
Although I'm not even sure of the legalities regarding mirrors on cars these days...I thought you still had to have them.

 

[Skillmister]

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/audi-e-tron-launches-brands-first-electric-only-model

Nice looking car but i have to wonder if putting cameras instead of mirrors is sensible at all. Surely it'll just use power, when we all want range.

And what's wrong with mirrors.

What you think they won't have tested that? States in the article it gives an extra 1.4 miles range.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

There are big gains to be made when traveling at high speed from dropping mirrors, particularly if the implementation doesn’t include big pods like the e-tron. No doubt they are designed that way due to most needing to have mirrors so it’s not worth doing new doors/wings just for a few camera based cars they will sell.

In the future I would expect it to be embedded into the side indicator light like a Tesla auto pilot camera. Have a look at the roadster prototype for an example.

It’s only legal in a few countries though but things are moving in that direction but it’s slow due to regulation.

 

[DampCat]

What you think they won't have tested that? States in the article it gives an extra 1.4 miles range.

You're suggesting that no company has ever released a product that turned out to be less than 100% efficient?

Clearly I missed the part in the article that addressed it, fair enough; but the preamble about testing is silly.

 

[PaulCa]

Mirrors work in 3D, cameras don't. Put another way, looking in a mirror with 2 eyes gives you a sense of depth and a natural awareness of distances. Looking at a single camera image with 2 eyes does not.

Anyone who plays racing games and then switched to VR will be able to vouch for this point.

That said, a lot of racing cars now use camera/screen for the rear view, though leaving side mirrors as mirrors.

 

[Nasher]

Yep you can't judge distances very well on a screen, that's why reversing cameras have distance markers on them.

Plus they can fail due to multiple reasons, mirrors can only stop working if they get smashed and they don't need power to operate. It's another un-necessary gadget which is inferior to the more simple solution, like keyless entry/start.

 

[Paradiso]

So BMW are on the verge of offering wireless charging on certain models. It may ultimately be limited in maximum charge rate being 3.2KW in the first iteration but interesting for me anyway with an i3.

Now all they need to do is lay electrical lines under the roads to charge whilst you drive.

 

[McPhee]

It's funny how much people continue to misunderstand the sheer size of the batteries in these cars. A humble old 24kWh Nissan Leaf holds enough power to run my house for two and a half days. A couple of cameras/the radio/headlights/whatever else make very little difference to range. Heating makes a few miles of difference per charge; most of the reduced winter range comes from the battery being cold, rather than the power used by a heat pump.

An eTron holds enough power to run my house for 10 days (actually, more than that as I used my annual kWh usage, which includes charging the car).

 

[Jonnycoupe]

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/audi-e-tron-launches-brands-first-electric-only-model

Nice looking car but i have to wonder if putting cameras instead of mirrors is sensible at all. Surely it'll just use power, when we all want range.

And what's wrong with mirrors.

Orders of magnitude less road load compared to the camera power!

 

[Jonnycoupe]

Yep you can't judge distances very well on a screen, that's why reversing cameras have distance markers on them.

Plus they can fail due to multiple reasons, mirrors can only stop working if they get smashed and they don't need power to operate. It's another un-necessary gadget which is inferior to the more simple solution, like keyless entry/start.

It’s actually more to do with the focus. A glance in a “mirror” becomes a long range to short distance refocus then back to long range.

Keyless entry/start is only pointless to people who haven’t used it...

 

[Jonnycoupe]

There are big gains to be made when traveling at high speed from dropping mirrors, particularly if the implementation doesn’t include big pods like the e-tron. No doubt they are designed that way due to most needing to have mirrors so it’s not worth doing new doors/wings just for a few camera based cars they will sell.

In the future I would expect it to be embedded into the side indicator light like a Tesla auto pilot camera.

That won’t be the case. Better to be clear of the body so they can taper the view so the cameras ultimately converge to show the same car in both screens... rather than a blind spot behind.

Also useful place for additional sensors or cameras or even lighting. Range Rover wade aid has sonar in the mirror housing to measure water depth for example.