EV general discussion

[lordrobs]

I think the problem is that 60+ miles is probably beyond the sweet spot for PHEV anyway. Because PHEVs are less efficient than BEVs on electric, they'd need about 30kWh of batteries for that which weighs about 500-750kg. Plus the extra weight of the motors required, etc., and you're looking at lugging the better part of a tonne of extra weight. PHEVs do gain some efficiency compared to pure ICE because they can recover energy from the braking and the drive train but even so having that much extra weight makes the car much less efficient.

Also, although the efficiency on short journeys can be much improved, and the majority of journeys are short, as proportion of actual miles travelled longer journeys make up the majority (especially for company cars) so gains on shorter journeys don't have the overall win you'd expect at first look.

I see the appeal of PHEVs, and I think that if PHEVs were designed more like the original Prius where the whole drivetrain was designed to maximise efficiency they might be closer to hitting that appeal, but overall I think they're a mostly poor technology which fails to deliver in real world usage. For some users, sure, they're spot on. But for most people, we'd be better pushing efficient ICE and taxing the absolute buggery out of bloated SUVs than pushing PHEV.

Interesting points. I must admit that in my mind they seem perfect but my use isn't normal by any stretch of the imagination with a 32 mile round trip commute to the office 70% of the time and the remainder being site based work anywhere in the UK. The reality would soon start to show if they didn't deliver what was promised by which point I'm stuck with it for 4+ years.

Ultimately I'll drive whatever the company wants me to drive (within reason) but the MD is against the idea of us going full EV at the moment. The new range of 70 mile PHEVS from VAG look tempting but I'd also happily go full EV given the chance. I've already changed how I structure my work day which would give me the odd hour here and there to charge up.

Unfortunately the only other company car driver in our workplace lives in a flat with communal parking. They like to keep things like cars on parity between staff so they will probably be cited as the reason why EV isn't an option.

Of course we will have to go EV eventually but by then the BIK gravy train will have left the station before I even get my ticket.

 

[Mr Jack]

That might be true for huge ass SUV's, and badly design drive trains, at the other end of the scale you have PHEV's with 8.9kWh of batteries that do 37 miles. So perhaps if they want PHEV's to count, then they'd need to put more effort into making them better rather than just piling in more battery capacity.

I estimated that off a median of 2kWh/mile from here 'cos it was the first link and I'm lazy - but that's US so you're probably right that it's talking about oversized SUVs and a lot of things on the UK market are going to do considerably better. Still, even if we're looking at 15-20kWh that's still a lot of extra weight.

The problem is in the way people think, which is what puts people off BEV's too, "ooo 25 miles isn't a lot, its not worth plugging it in really" that sort of attitude. They think the travel further than they do most of the time, and don't realise they can run a car for 5 working days on 60 miles of range. Most people can't be bothered to do basic maths once they've left school, and asking them to work out their real mileage is seen as a massive chore, but they'll happily complain about the cost of fuel for 45 minutes to their colleagues etc.

Yup.

 

[lordrobs]

I estimated that off a median of 2kWh/mile from here 'cos it was the first link and I'm lazy - but that's US so you're probably right that it's talking about oversized SUVs and a lot of things on the UK market are going to do considerably better. Still, even if we're looking at 15-20kWh that's still a lot of extra weight.

19.7kWh in the new Leon for a quoted 62 mile EV range. I've got no idea how much bulk that adds? I assume that the driver is screened from that to an extent with the suspension designed and the fact it has 200+ bhp compared to the 125 bhp of my petrol 1.4 TSI. That just leaves the issue of the energy required accelerating the extra bulk...

 

[b0rn2sk8]

62 miles WLTP is more like 40-45 miles in the real world. Still that’s above your typical daily milage.

As I said before the issue with PHEVs is that it assumes people plug them in and use them in the most efficient way possible. The best laid assumptions seldom last past first contact with the customer.

In reality some people don’t charge them and most of those that do don’t switch between driving modes to maximise the use electrical energy available on their journey so they are not as good as their theoretical potential in the real world.

For those who can’t charge daily at home/work have basically just got an over engineered hybrid.

 

[Tinders]

The new 3 series will have a huge battery aswell. I got a record 56 electric miles in mine on sunday, that was on a 210 round trip starting with a charge. I think the increase in battery size has been dictated by EU legislation. Thats why all the PHEV players have got 20 odd kwh batteries.

 

[sandys]

I have 18.8Kw battery in mine with 14.9 usable, nets me 38-45 mile these days (my WLTP was 44 miles but I chnaged alloys) less in winter, its 300kg heavier than the non PHEV but similar weight to an EV, I am really happy with it. Long distance travels or towing are a non issue, what ever its real emissions may be, it is clearly better than a straight ICE, when used as a city car carting kids around, the petrol is never used.

They are given an unnecessarily harsh time, they do perform a function, sure they get less effective if you are a big mile muncher but a big petrol car like this doing >75mpg over 100 miles is OK.

We get to charge cheap at home and free at destination(work), so it works well for us. Shame a few people ruin it for the people that can make use of these.

 

[chanjy]

The new Passat/Superb PHEV has a 25.7kWh (19.7kWh usable) battery which is the same as early Leafs/Zoes

I'd be tempted by that as my next car if I can't find a suitable BEV

 

[jpaul]

like id7 - have seen one locally so far, but like phev length not so practical

the phev 60 miles for european tax break , but apparently meshes in with bik pricing too

As an example in the U.K., the Range Rover Sport PHEV with 113 km (70 miles) of electric range from a 38-kWh battery is in the 5 percent benefit-in-kind tax band, as is the VW Tiguan, with similar range, as is the new Skoda Superb PHEV. Cars with a range of 64-111 km (40-69 miles) are in the 8 percent band; those with a range of 48-63 km (30-39) miles pay 12 percent.

 

[squerble]

I've decided I probably won't have another Tesla after my Model Y. I think some of the user interface (not enough stalks) is too compromised, and it'll only get worse in the refreshed Y as it'll follow the new 3's lead and go completely stalkless. Not only this, but Tesla skimping on a cheap infrared water sensor like every other manufacturer uses means the AUTO setting on the wipers is mostly useless. As an EV (charging network, app, features on the car) it's fantastic; as a car for a driver, it feels just a touch too compromised.

 

[ICDP]

I've decided I probably won't have another Tesla after my Model Y. I think some of the user interface (not enough stalks) is too compromised, and it'll only get worse in the refreshed Y as it'll follow the new 3's lead and go completely stalkless. Not only this, but Tesla skimping on a cheap infrared water sensor like every other manufacturer uses means the AUTO setting on the wipers is mostly useless. As an EV (charging network, app, features on the car) it's fantastic; as a car for a driver, it feels just a touch too compromised.

I always felt this in Tesla EVs. Great EVs but poor cars. I’ve test driven them a few times and always came away unimpressed with them as cars.

 

[Tinders]

Problem is everyone compares everything to Tesla, from a software POV anyway. They do that very well, and i would expect them to catch up on the car side eventually. They are even starting to look ok now, the highland looks good from the front.

The mainstream manufacturers really have struggled with software, VW have finally got something thats decent with v5, BMW's setup looks pretty polished. Merc is a bit meh, not tried Renault or anything from Stellantis to compare.

 

[squerble]

Yea. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t hate it or anything, but I regret doing a 4 year lease now

 

[Quinnaay]

Couple of questions to you EV enthusiasts. I’ve always been a petrol head but since a car theft looking at other options. Ive tried doing some man maths and worked out that I’d roughly save £1500 a year give or take on owning a EV compared to my previous car. Now, what’s the general consensus on a Model 3 long range Tesla particular second hand. Im looking to potentially buy outright a 21 plate and they seem to vary between maybe 21-23k.

I’m slightly concerned about the depreciation outweighing the savings after maybe 3/4 years ownership and obviously have a slight worry on the battery health and price if it fails. I do approx 9-10k miles a year and very little motorway. Does anyone think this is a decent buy at this price point? It seems a fairly good car for that sort of money or atleast it seems.

 

[z10m]

Couple of questions to you EV enthusiasts. I’ve always been a petrol head but since a car theft looking at other options. Ive tried doing some man maths and worked out that I’d roughly save £1500 a year give or take on owning a EV compared to my previous car. Now, what’s the general consensus on a Model 3 long range Tesla particular second hand. Im looking to potentially buy outright a 21 plate and they seem to vary between maybe 21-23k.

I’m slightly concerned about the depreciation outweighing the savings after maybe 3/4 years ownership and obviously have a slight worry on the battery health and price if it fails. I do approx 9-10k miles a year and very little motorway. Does anyone think this is a decent buy at this price point? It seems a fairly good car for that sort of money or atleast it seems.

I would look for something that had all the upgrades like heat pump, Ryzen processor, acoustic glass in the front door and matrix headlights as Tesla was improving model 3 throughout the years of its production.
Late 2022 model is probably the best bet if you can find one for a good price.
A lot of models from 2021 had faulty batteries that died after around 60k miles so I would try to avoid those.
Mine was registered at the end of December 2022 and was made in China.
On the outside it looks very good with no uneven panel gaps etc but I still get some slight interior rattles from the usual places like rear seats, seat belt hight adjuster and the dashboard.
The rattles are I think temperature dependent as I get days where nothing rattles, one of the 3 things rattle or all 3.
Also suspension and tyres (Michelin Pilot Sport 4) are a bit firm and noisy but they provide excellent handling so driving it feels awesome.
Efficiency is class leading for a car this size and on my standard range plus with LFP battery I can go over claimed range without too much hassle.
I’m getting just over 5 miles per kWh doing my daily commute (under 10 miles round trip) now in the summer which I think is ridiculously low.
Obviously with Tesla you also get class leading infotainment system, decent autopilot, constant updates that change how everything looks, sentry mode and as a bonus free Spotify premium account for use in the car only.
I can’t comment about depreciation as I plan to keep the car for as long as I can so not bothered with that.

 

[pc-guy]

Couple of questions to you EV enthusiasts. I’ve always been a petrol head but since a car theft looking at other options. Ive tried doing some man maths and worked out that I’d roughly save £1500 a year give or take on owning a EV compared to my previous car. Now, what’s the general consensus on a Model 3 long range Tesla particular second hand. Im looking to potentially buy outright a 21 plate and they seem to vary between maybe 21-23k.

I’m slightly concerned about the depreciation outweighing the savings after maybe 3/4 years ownership and obviously have a slight worry on the battery health and price if it fails. I do approx 9-10k miles a year and very little motorway. Does anyone think this is a decent buy at this price point? It seems a fairly good car for that sort of money or atleast it seems.

3yr old EV is probably the best bet atm for purchase as the initial depreciation has happened due to ridiculously high OTR prices.

With Tesla they do refreshes and they older gen models will loose a bit of money over night on refresh release.

Just watched this and it’s got some interesting prices on some of the premium EVs.

The 20+ Best Used Electric Cars To Buy Right Now

Jack goes second hand car shopping in search of an EV bargain - and finds more of them than he can shake a stick at!Big thanks to Cinch for allowing us film ...

youtu.be

It is worth noting some of the EVs mentioned in the video hasn’t changed prices at all since late 2022. The Lead/Zoe/E-Up/Mii/citigo have always been that price. So I reckon that’s the floor of used EV unless manufacturers come out with £15,000 new BEVs and push the likes of e-Niro, Soul Ioniq further down the price bracket and thus the floor will move lower.

Depreciation isn’t much issue if you plan to keep the car for long term but if you want to get a new used car every 3/4yrs then you want o think about it a bit more.

 

[Quinnaay]

I would look for something that had all the upgrades like heat pump, Ryzen processor, acoustic glass in the front door and matrix headlights as Tesla was improving model 3 throughout the years of its production.
Late 2022 model is probably the best bet if you can find one for a good price.
A lot of models from 2021 had faulty batteries that died after around 60k miles so I would try to avoid those.
Mine was registered at the end of December 2022 and was made in China.
On the outside it looks very good with no uneven panel gaps etc but I still get some slight interior rattles from the usual places like rear seats, seat belt hight adjuster and the dashboard.
The rattles are I think temperature dependent as I get days where nothing rattles, one of the 3 things rattle or all 3.
Also suspension and tyres (Michelin Pilot Sport 4) are a bit firm and noisy but they provide excellent handling so driving it feels awesome.
Efficiency is class leading for a car this size and on my standard range plus with LFP battery I can go over claimed range without too much hassle.
I’m getting just over 5 miles per kWh doing my daily commute (under 10 miles round trip) now in the summer which I think is ridiculously low.
Obviously with Tesla you also get class leading infotainment system, decent autopilot, constant updates that change how everything looks, sentry mode and as a bonus free Spotify premium account for use in the car only.
I can’t comment about depreciation as I plan to keep the car for as long as I can so not bothered with that.

Thanks sounds great to be honest it’s hard to shunt off. What’s the cost of the charger being installed as I have a driveway ? Secondly I read something about the 21 plates being made in China with the heat pump and glass etc ? I’ll have to do some more digging as that was the main reason for specifically mentioning the 21 reg

Thanks

 

[roccles]

I've decided I probably won't have another Tesla after my Model Y. I think some of the user interface (not enough stalks) is too compromised, and it'll only get worse in the refreshed Y as it'll follow the new 3's lead and go completely stalkless. Not only this, but Tesla skimping on a cheap infrared water sensor like every other manufacturer uses means the AUTO setting on the wipers is mostly useless. As an EV (charging network, app, features on the car) it's fantastic; as a car for a driver, it feels just a touch too compromised.

I've been completely underwhelmed by the UI/UX in our Model 3 LR, which is surprising because, as a bit of a nerd, I thought I'd love it.

The navigation feels lacking, though I can't quite put my finger on why. It seems to prefer road names over numbers, making it hard to match directions with road signs. Occasionally, it even displays European route numbers (like showing E15 instead of M8), which leaves me confused about where I’m supposed to be heading. This isn't an issue I've ever had when using Android Auto or Google Maps.

The recent addition of Audible initially excited me, but it was disappointing to find that it doesn’t sync with my account on the phone. Instead, it operates entirely independently, which defeats the purpose.

The built-in data connection is also problematic, often leaving me staring at a buffering screen.

Individually, these are minor annoyances, but together they add up to a frustrating experience.

On top of that, the Group 50E insurance stings and negates some of the savings from driving an electric car, like the exemption from road tax.

While the driving experience and charging infrastructure are great, I’m not sure I’d choose to buy another Tesla.

 

[z10m]

Thanks sounds great to be honest it’s hard to shunt off. What’s the cost of the charger being installed as I have a driveway ? Secondly I read something about the 21 plates being made in China with the heat pump and glass etc ? I’ll have to do some more digging as that was the main reason for specifically mentioning the 21 reg

Thanks

Didn’t look at home charger as granny charger is plenty good for me and I can add 100 miles of range overnight.
I think you are right about 21 reg having heat pump and acoustic glass but not sure about Ryzen processor and they might still be running older intel atom.
Also people on Reddit claim some 21 models came out with batteries that didn’t last long so I would do some research regarding that.
Otherwise I love the car and how advanced it is and that I can control everything from the app as well as being able to view cameras feed remotely.
Oh and not having to use any keys is great since my home has internet controlled lock as well so I don’t carry any keys with me at all anymore.

 

[roccles]

Thanks sounds great to be honest it’s hard to shunt off. What’s the cost of the charger being installed as I have a driveway ? Secondly I read something about the 21 plates being made in China with the heat pump and glass etc ? I’ll have to do some more digging as that was the main reason for specifically mentioning the 21 reg

Thanks

I got a local electrician to fit mine and the cost was £314.78 installation only and I supplied the unit. I went for a Ohme Epod untethered as this was one of the models that worked with Ovo AnyTime. Make sure you check which models work with your electricity supplier i was limited 4 models (Ohme ePod, Indra Smart PRO, Ohme Home Pro and Hypervolt Home 3 Pro) could end up a costly exercise if you buy an non compatible charger.

Also mine is a 21 plate and is China built with the heatpump but has the Intel processor, i think you need to look at 2022+ for Ryzen

 

[z10m]

@Quinnaay also doing road trips in a Tesla is just a breeze as you don’t have to think about charging stops as the car does it all for you and Tesla superchargers are the cheapest by far.
Going to Germany which was about 1400 miles round trip cost me slightly over half of what I paid doing the same trip in my sluggish 1.6 Skoda diesel.
Like people here said Teslas are not the best cars but the best EVs.