When are you going fully electric?

Soldato
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I wouldn't exactly call Leaf/Zoe drivers wealthy but yes I get your point.

The main issue that the above poster was highlighting was people with no drives, there is millions in grants set aside from OLEV for LA's to use and there is nothing stopping them putting in posts in residential streets or public car parks. The problem is most didn't bother taking up the offer and they likely will be gone before EV's really go mainstream.

Sticking is DC fast chargers everywhere isn't really the solution either and it's the quickest way to kill the battery. They are also incredibly expensive to both install and operate, they also need a beefy local grid that doesn't exist in a lot of places. Low power AC chargers are a much better solution, you can wire them all together so they don't overload the local grid and can dynamically vary the charge rate based on surrounding load or electricity price.

For private land like flats there is nothing stopping the residents doing something on their own.

I can see how charge points for residential streets will go the same way as the rural broadband schemes, LA's will not do anything until enough people sign up and will end up being a huge cat and mouse game between LA's and residents. That being said putting in AC chargers is really easy, relatively quick and cheap process.
 
Man of Honour
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I wouldn't exactly call Leaf/Zoe drivers wealthy but yes I get your point.

A Nissan Leaf costs almost £30,000 which is significantly more money than an equivalent ICE vehicle. It's a statement, not an economical choice, so I'd counter that yes, Leaf drivers could be argued to be wealthy!
 
Soldato
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It's just not a realistic option for a large swathes of car owners, and I'm saying that even if you ignore the outright cost of the vehicle. Lots and lots of people live on streets, and I don't mean new streets here I'm talking old streets full of semis and terraced houses, where on returning from work etc it's a complete lottery as to where you get to park. It can be outside your home, 3 doors down, opposite side of the road half on/off the pavement, round the corner, bottom of the street.

Imagine coming home on a winters evening in the freezing rain needing to charge your car in that mess.

I don't think charging at home is the future of EVs, it simply can't be, it would be a logistical nightmare.

The most common sense approach would be some sort of extremely rapid charging system that would allow the conversion of all the existing petrol stations into charging stations.
 
Soldato
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No, we're not. We are 6 years on from the point at which you can say full plugins went mainstream (release of Zoe, Leaf, Tesla Model S etc).

I understand that. And the rest of the contribution rather than correction exercise is later?

I was talking fast charging principally.

I chose a slightly out of term phrase and boom, grammar police 5 star wanted level.
 
Soldato
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The most common sense approach would be some sort of extremely rapid charging system that would allow the conversion of all the existing petrol stations into charging stations.

This is the direction some manufacturers are going. The joint venture charging network rolling out CCS Europe wide will be capable of 350kw charging. Porsche will support this level with their Taycan and a few others are starting to bring out cars which will charge at 100kw. With a software update apparently the I-Pace will exceed this, although at the moment it tops out at about 80kw.

When you compare this with the 50kw we have available today... Another generation or so and a 5-10min “fill” will add a meaningful amount of range and cars will start to have 300mile+ range as standard. A fortnightly top up soon sounds viable for a lot of people.

Tesla is pretty close with 120kw charging and city owners are already using Superchargers for all their charging needs.
 
Soldato
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A Nissan Leaf costs almost £30,000 which is significantly more money than an equivalent ICE vehicle. It's a statement, not an economical choice, so I'd counter that yes, Leaf drivers could be argued to be wealthy!

EV's are more expensive there is no denying that but the cost of fuel is an order of magnitude lower so the picture isn't that clear.

Most people rent their new cars on PCP or lease, and once you add on a couple of tanks of fuel to a month to the monthly car payment you are well into EV price territory. 40 litres of diesel is about £55 these days.

I'm sure there are plenty of examples where ICE can be had for much less but most people are not on these deals and pay the high retail dealer pricing offered and don't even negotiate.

Cars like the Zoe are doing really well in Europe and you certainly wouldn't describe your average Zoe owner as 'wealthy'. There is a huge gulf between those buying Tesla's and those buying a Leaf, Ionic, Zoe etc.
 
Soldato
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Has anyone worked out how much electricity will be required to be generated for 39 million electric cars replacing the 39 million cars currently on our roads? Also where will we get the new batteries for 39 million cars every 5-10 years?
Used Nissan Leaf battery pack going for £4000 on ebay that's some big money! You have to wonder which empowered politician has fingers in which pies. Globally this is boiling up to be a yet another fine mess, we really need a solution to personal travel.
Andi.
 
Soldato
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Work have started to offer a salary sacrifice car scheme and a couple of electric cars are available.

The cheapest on a 4 year, 20k a year lease is the Kona at £280 a month. This scheme has no deposit and the cars are fully maintained and includes insurance. I think, with charging costs, this will end up costing £320 a month.

We currently have an old Cmax which costs £291 a month in fuel, tax and insurance, plus tyres, MOT etc.

I've driven the Soul and I do like it, I'm just not sure committing to a 4 year lease now is the best choice. While I have no doubt the range would cover my 60 miles a day commute, I am worried it won't be enough for the (rare) days I come home and want to go out again.

Unfortunately having the car on a 2 year lease is £380 a month which is too expensive as I'd much prefer to commit to 2 years.
 
Soldato
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I love how in this thread, owning a house worth half the UK average means I'm wealthy, just because it has a driveway :D

A Nissan Leaf costs almost £30,000 which is significantly more money than an equivalent ICE vehicle. It's a statement, not an economical choice, so I'd counter that yes, Leaf drivers could be argued to be wealthy!

A Leaf doesn't actually cost £30,000 though, the Acenta is ~£25k after the PiCG and dealer discounts etc. are taken into account, sure that's about £7-8k more than a base model Focus or other similar ICE car, but (obviously mileage dependent) over a few years ownership you're going to save the difference in fuel, RFL and servicing, not to mention that a base model Leaf is far better specced than a base model Focus. I'll concede however that the depreciation at the moment is a bit of an unknown, and seems to be higher on EVs.

A quick look at leasing options and vs the Zoe I've ordered, a Clio of vaguely similar spec (it's still missing a few gadgets) is £80/month cheaper. That's 2 tanks of fuel.

I'm sure I saw an article recently where they were installing charge points in lampposts, which I think is one way of addressing the no-driveway issue, obviously its not going to be appropriate everywhere, and would need to be paid for, but still a step in the right direction
 
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Caporegime
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This is the direction some manufacturers are going. The joint venture charging network rolling out CCS Europe wide will be capable of 350kw charging. Porsche will support this level with their Taycan and a few others are starting to bring out cars which will charge at 100kw. With a software update apparently the I-Pace will exceed this, although at the moment it tops out at about 80kw.

When you compare this with the 50kw we have available today... Another generation or so and a 5-10min “fill” will add a meaningful amount of range and cars will start to have 300mile+ range as standard. A fortnightly top up soon sounds viable for a lot of people.

Tesla is pretty close with 120kw charging and city owners are already using Superchargers for all their charging needs.

One of the issues with the use of commercial chargers is economics. Many people base their economics on being able to charge at residential rates. Rates from commercial chargers are significantly more than what you’d pay at your home, getting much closer to the cost of petrol for the equivalent ICE*.

It’s something that may be an issue for a few years to come, until battery prices from considerably. Major use of commercial chargers will also make it easier for the government to tax usage too, which in turn may make electricity the same price as petrol.

*Yes, some Tesla’s can charge for free, but they are the exception rather than the norm. Especially so as even Tesla are removing that option for new vehicles.
 
Soldato
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One of the issues with the use of commercial chargers is economics. Many people base their economics on being able to charge at residential rates. Rates from commercial chargers are significantly more than what you’d pay at your home, getting much closer to the cost of petrol for the equivalent ICE*.

It’s something that may be an issue for a few years to come, until battery prices from considerably. Major use of commercial chargers will also make it easier for the government to tax usage too, which in turn may make electricity the same price as petrol.

*Yes, some Tesla’s can charge for free, but they are the exception rather than the norm. Especially so as even Tesla are removing that option for new vehicles.

Yes, a lot of people forget that rapid chargers are expensive when they complain about charging costs. But then even a relatively expensive rapid charge in the Uk is the equivalent of c.90mpg in a petrol at current prices. Others offer a rate lower than residential for a low subscription cost. I pay £8 a month to Polar and rapid charge at 10.8p per kWh which is less than my home electricity rate.

Ecotricity did more damage than good in this area. For years their motorway charging network was completely free to use. Free charging + sub £200 a month Leaf and Zoe PCPs set an unreleastic expectation that charging should be free/very cheap and distorted the cost of EV ownership for a while.
 
Caporegime
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EV's are more expensive there is no denying that but the cost of fuel is an order of magnitude lower so the picture isn't that clear.

Most people rent their new cars on PCP or lease, and once you add on a couple of tanks of fuel to a month to the monthly car payment you are well into EV price territory. 40 litres of diesel is about £55 these days.

I'm sure there are plenty of examples where ICE can be had for much less but most people are not on these deals and pay the high retail dealer pricing offered and don't even negotiate.

Cars like the Zoe are doing really well in Europe and you certainly wouldn't describe your average Zoe owner as 'wealthy'. There is a huge gulf between those buying Tesla's and those buying a Leaf, Ionic, Zoe etc.

When you do the sums it usually works out as being more economical for someone doing 2 or more times the average mileage. It’s certainly not cheaper for the majority, even when charging at home.

For people with long commutes/high yearly mileage then yes, they do make sense, but for the majority of people that do 8000 miles or less a year then it really doesn’t. But again it will depend specifically on what model and what your usage case is.

Usually there’s in the range of £10-15k difference for the “lower” priced EVs which means you’re looking at 10+ years of fuel costs (assuming free electricity) to pay back if you’re doing average UK mileage or less.
 
Soldato
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Work have started to offer a salary sacrifice car scheme and a couple of electric cars are available.

The cheapest on a 4 year, 20k a year lease is the Kona at £280 a month. This scheme has no deposit and the cars are fully maintained and includes insurance. I think, with charging costs, this will end up costing £320 a month.

Is that the long range or short range?

Either way, not sure why you would be worried about range on a Kona, even after your 60 mile/day drive to work you would have 100 or 180 miles of range left in the car depending on which one it is.

£280 fully maintained inc insurance would be a no brainier for me if I were going to lease a new car.
 
Soldato
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I also like how the maths is being worked out based on not very well off people buying new cars. This forum is a bubble, most people aren't tooling around in £300-400 p/m brand new lease Audis, plenty of people still only buy cheap second hand cars, same sort of people who don't have a drive to charge them on.
 
Caporegime
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It's pretty much the norm. I'd guestimate over 90% of Tesla on the road are getting free supercharging. But as you say, that's slowly changing and being removed for new vehicles.

They’re the only brand I know that offered free charging. I could be wrong though. The current referral offer is free charging for 6 months, so not lifetime like they used to.
 
Soldato
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Only when the batteries are solid state and charging is in line with filling up with petrol.
When batteries basically don't degrade at all.

When there is much greater choice for EVs for sporting credentials. When petrol is so expensive everyone has switched over.
 
Soldato
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Is that the long range or short range?

Either way, not sure why you would be worried about range on a Kona, even after your 60 mile/day drive to work you would have 100 or 180 miles of range left in the car depending on which one it is.

£280 fully maintained inc insurance would be a no brainier for me if I were going to lease a new car.

Sorry I was thinking one thing and writing another! It's the Kia Soul that's £280 a month.
For reference the other choices are -
Zoe Signature Nav Q90 40KWH - £353.77
Ioniq 28kwh Electric Premium - £322.54
Leaf Tekna 40KW - £382.56
Smart ForFour Prime Premium Plus - £295.75

No Kona or others on the scheme as yet.
 
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