When are you going fully electric?

[Mekrel]

I'll be going electric when I'm forced to, at the moment I just don't see the appeal outside of ICE.

40 minute plus charging times just aren't usable in my opinion and those sort of times are only achievable with certain charging stations. Putting it into a sentence, you're moving to less range and slower charging/refill times - when you put it like that, it just seems strange people are buying into EVs now when there's at least 5+ years at the earliest until we see these barriers removed.

The cost for what you get is also a blow, even with government rebates. Aside from the Tesla, Polestar and Audi e-Tron Sportsback cars they're also mainly ugly as sin. I mean the VW ID range looks horrid, but I don't hold that opinion of VWs ICE like for like vehicles.

Good luck if you live in a flat in terms of trying to get a charging station installed. I can picture the dollar signs in the management company's eyes in regards to how much markup they'll put on getting these things installed.

 

[blun]

If you don't have a driveway it can still be hard work, though it's getting simpler every week. You have to build charging into times where your car is parked at the supermarket / gym / station etc..

If you can charge at home those 40-minute charging stories just aren't a thing. For example in nearly 18 months I have only needed to charge away from home 6 times and they've been 15 mins to get an extra 100 miles range to get to my destination whilst having a quick sandwich / coffee stop.

Normally week to week you can plug in when you get home (<3 seconds) and unplug in the morning (<3 seconds) and have 200-300 miles worth of "fuel in the tank".

A sensible solution for flats with allocated parking would be to install a charger linked to the relevant flat's electricity, giving all the benefit of cheap charging tariffs. This would be dead easy to do on new flats and quite possible to do on some existing ones. Obviously this probably won't happen and management companies will try to milk it for a quick buck though!

 

[Mekrel]

To be fair, I would argue the last 18 months aren't representative of traditional life due to COVID. Outside of COVID, I was driving to Leeds and back frequently and with an EV that would require additional time planning to charge at a service station or hope there's a car park with EV spaces available that are available to use at the time.

Unfortunately it wouldn't be that easy on existing flats because there's limited return for landowners or management companies to upset the apple cart in regards to getting them installed. You're talking significant costs here as you'll need to pay for the chargers, cabling, installation, removal of existing structures to lay the cabling and get said cables routed to each flat's circuit.

That cost is easily >£250 per leaseholder and that requires section 20 notices being served as it'll be outside of typical annual service charge budgets. That'll kick up a right fuss because majority of leaseholders will not have need for an EV charging point (based on less than 1 in 10 owning an EV now).

 

[DarrenM343]

I'll be going electric when I'm forced to, at the moment I just don't see the appeal outside of ICE.

40 minute plus charging times just aren't usable in my opinion and those sort of times are only achievable with certain charging stations. Putting it into a sentence, you're moving to less range and slower charging/refill times - when you put it like that, it just seems strange people are buying into EVs now when there's at least 5+ years at the earliest until we see these barriers removed.

I had similar thoughts but when I looked deeper I realised even a reasonably smaller battery I could make work. You don't have to charge to full each time.
EV's are going to evolve quickly and for sure 5 years from now it'll be an easier decision. I think people do need to think about what they need. At the moment everyone seems to think "must have massive battery". I was reading something earlier about current EV's/batteries not being as good as 2007 to 2013 and while I only skimmed it, the problem seems to be the trend of heavy EV's and big batteries now more commonplace. Carrying around all that weight when most of the time someone might be city driving, is just a complete waste of energy and resources.

Something that really does need fixing is the charging infrastructure, reliability of chargers and methods of payments etc. Needs to be standardised. Tbh the government should have managed this from the start. Having to use a network specific app, or payment method (such as monthly subscription) is just stupid. That's what happens with new tech when the private sector allowed to have their way

 

[Mekrel]

So that's something (charging standards) I felt could be an issue based on what I've read or heard, but didn't know for a fact so didn't comment. I believe Tesla have their own standard at least, but what other standards are there?

I think that's a massive issue because fuel pumps work universally.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

The contactless card charging mechanism has already been put in place by the government and rolling out now.

I like monthly subscription as an option(that’s right a choice) on BP to give you better charge rates, better than the silly points schemes at petrol stations that don’t really amount to anything.

but hey, don’t let experience get in the way of the usual cliche narrative...

put fuel in the wife’s MINI today, such a chore!

 

[DarrenM343]

So that's something (charging standards) I felt could be an issue based on what I've read or heard, but didn't know for a fact so didn't comment. I believe Tesla have their own standard at least, but what other standards are there?

I think that's a massive issue because fuel pumps work universally.

IMO Tesla shouldn't have their own standard. Charging needs to be standardised across all EV's, or put it another way, any EV able to use any charger (including Tesla chargers), much like any ICE can rock up at any petrol pump and refuel. Tesla can lead the way on this tbh, but in this age having chargers specific to a vehicle manufacturer shouldn't be possible . I mean, imagine rolling up to a busy public charging area and seeing all supercharger bays vacant while others are all full. Transportation today is expected, normal, a necessity, hence chargers at a public location for a specific vehicle/manufacturer just seems odd (IMO).

Some charging networks require specific apps to be used & even sometimes a monthly subscription. Should be as simple as ICE, roll up, at minimum able to pay by debit/credit card etc & quickly, with not much thought required to do it . Subscriptions as an option, fine.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

Are we making stuff up now? None require monthly subscriptions. Simple as ICE? Don’t constrain yourself! I have card that about 8 different suppliers cost get put straight onto my home energy bill, or my energy bill.

Tesla in Europe use the same CCS as most others...

 

[DarrenM343]

Are we making stuff up now? None require monthly subscriptions. Simple as ICE? Don’t constrain yourself! I have card that about 8 different suppliers cost get put straight onto my home energy bill, or my energy bill.

Tesla in Europe use the same CCS as most others...

Maybe I have misunderstood but I thought one network required a monthly subscription? If not, then my bad. The gov is starting look into networks, payments & reliability of charging stations. Subscriptions etc all ok as an option but many will be charging at home, mostly, and then just want to roll up and easily recharge and pay for it when necessary using any charging station(any network).

What's the card you use?

 

[Jonnycoupe]

Octopus Juice as part of OctopusEnergy. Even Ionity is on that with 5% discount but that’s insane cost if you aren’t driving a car that’s in the “club” for that network.

 

[SDK^]

I'll be going electric when I'm forced to, at the moment I just don't see the appeal outside of ICE.

40 minute plus charging times just aren't usable in my opinion and those sort of times are only achievable with certain charging stations. Putting it into a sentence, you're moving to less range and slower charging/refill times - when you put it like that, it just seems strange people are buying into EVs now when there's at least 5+ years at the earliest until we see these barriers removed.

Currently only the Tesla M3 works for the high daily milers with £40-£50k to spend - but these high mile drivers are in the minority.

For everyone else who can charge at home, a daily range of ~200 miles is enough; the average 2019 UK daily mileage was just 20.7 miles. It’s also more convenient because the car can be charged to full range on your drive whilst you sleep, so there is no need to go out of your way to visit a petrol station. Then you figure it’s about £8 (normal home elec rates) to charge for 250+ miles and you see how people can make the costs work.

 

[Mekrel]

The contactless card charging mechanism has already been put in place by the government and rolling out now.

I like monthly subscription as an option(that’s right a choice) on BP to give you better charge rates, better than the silly points schemes at petrol stations that don’t really amount to anything.

but hey, don’t let experience get in the way of the usual cliche narrative...

put fuel in the wife’s MINI today, such a chore!

How is it a cliché though? The whole point of the thread is to talk about when will you go EV and quite clearly EVs still don't make sense to everyone.

Case in point: me. Seeing as I don't have access to any form of charging, even 3 pin, at my flat, should I go to a charging point and stand there like a lemon for 45 minutes for 80% charge that wouldn't get me to Leeds without needing to charge again (unless I buy a Tesla)? It just isn't workable unless you have a charger at home or at work. Our office block isn't owned by our business and there's no incentive for the building owner to install charging points.

 

[Mekrel]

Currently only the Tesla M3 works for the high daily milers with £40-£50k to spend - but these high mile drivers are in the minority.

For everyone else who can charge at home, a daily range of ~200 miles is enough; the average 2019 UK daily mileage was just 20.7 miles. It’s also more convenient because the car can be charged to full range on your drive whilst you sleep, so there is no need to go out of your way to visit a petrol station. Then you figure it’s about £8 (normal home elec rates) to charge for 250+ miles and you see how people can make the costs work.

I guess that's the crux of it, it depends on your usual trip requirements. I live fairly local to a town centre so I can walk most places and also walk to work, therefore my car is only really used for long journeys such as travelling to see customers or visiting family (none of which have charging points, or in the case of customers are for their staff only). That's why my current car (2L TDI A4) is pushing 50mpg avg because most of its life was spent on a motorway.

I'm all for EV being the future don't get me wrong, but I can't see it working for me yet or in the near term - I think 5 years is being generous. It all depends on solid battery technology becoming mass produced.

I do wonder how the government will make up for the fuel duty they're going to be missing out on...

 

[WJA96]

How is it a cliché though? The whole point of the thread is to talk about when will you go EV and quite clearly EVs still don't make sense to everyone.

Case in point: me. Seeing as I don't have access to any form of charging, even 3 pin, at my flat, should I go to a charging point and stand there like a lemon for 45 minutes for 80% charge that wouldn't get me to Leeds without needing to charge again (unless I buy a Tesla)? It just isn't workable unless you have a charger at home or at work. Our office block isn't owned by our business and there's no incentive for the building owner to install charging points.

I drive from Thetford to Leeds and back once a week. I have a Hyundai Kona. In the winter it has a starting range of 225 miles (100% to 20% ‘safety’ level). The trip is just under 200 miles each way. I stop at Markham Moor services on the way up and I stop for 30 minutes which gives me an extra 100 miles of range. That gets me to Leeds Woodhouse Lane Car park with about 130 miles range remaining. That car park has 18 free 7kW chargers and it costs me £8 to park all day. That gives me 100% range to set off again. I then drive back non-stop although if I feel tired I will stop at Markham Moor services (Starbucks) or Sutton Bridge (Starbucks) for a 15-20 minute break and a rapid charge. Total cost for a 400 mile trip is about £10 or 4p per mile. OK, you can add on £6 for 2 large drinks from Starbucks but it’s still very cheap compared to an ICE car which would cost £30-£40 for a 400 mile trip.

In the summer the Kona has a starting range of 260 miles and there is no need to charge on the way up so long as I can get on the charger at Woodhouse Lane car park.

Yes, I have to plan my drive, but that’s hardly a chore.

As for standing about like a lemon, I just fire up my laptop and get some work done. Or build the charging stop around a quick shop or a meal break.

I was genuinely worried about range and charging time and I really didn’t need to. There are plenty of chargers and plenty or opportunities to use them. It is a different mindset but not worse, just different.

 

[Mekrel]

The lemon comment was more in regards to charging locally, as in waiting in a supermarket car park or fuel station with nothing to do.

I do see your point in regards to changing your habits, essentially charging enough on a journey so you have range for the next trip or at least a good part of the trip.

It is one of the reasons why I've been looking at my next step on the ladder to a house. Outdoor space after COVID, no ground rent or management charges and freedom to install such things such as EV chargers for future proofing.

I also quite like cleaning my own car and the battery powered jet wash really doesn't cut the mustard.

 

[blun]

The best option is not to wait while your car charges but to charge while you're doing something else. A bit like a mobile phone - you don't watch it and wait for it to charge, you leave it charging while you don't need to use it. This is easier in some places than others at the moment and depends where you leave your car (e.g. if you park at a gym with a fast charger for 90 mins / park at a train station with a slow charger for 10 hours etc..)

I totally see the point about it not working in your current rented flat situation though - I don't think I'd get an EV just now if I was in a rented flat unless I could charge at work, or if my local charging options fitted with my daily routine. As more public chargers become available though I think this will become more normal (e.g. in some Chinese cities it's not unusual for a supermarket to have 100 chargers in the car park).

The other benefit of home charging is that if you have a long trip planned, even if you arrived home with 10% battery late the night before, you have 100% in the morning ready to set off. If you only have public charging options then this suddenly becomes more difficult.

 

[Mekrel]

The flat isn't rented, it's owned, but the challenge is that whilst I own that flat and the parking space as per the lease agreement, I don't own the communal area to the parking space which includes both the communal areas outside and inside the building.

Therefore to install the charger off the flat's circuit, it's going to involve agreement from the land owner and it'll have to go through the management company. Obviously it's a double edged sword because you don't want neighbours getting any old cowboy to do work on a supporting wall for example. So whilst a pain, it does also offer protection too.

It's insane that even new builds being constructed right now do not include charging facilities. Obviously not all, but at least the flats around here aren't having them installed at the time of construction.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

I can see something legislative coming in to compel the free holders to make arrangements for leaseholders here it’s appropriate.

Not an easy task though as every building is different and will have its own problem to solve.

 

[WJA96]

While charging at home is great, there really is no need for every home to have a charge point. On a 150kW charger there isn’t a car on sale today that can’t get a 0-100% charge inside 90 minutes.

And the new 800V cars (Taycan, Audi eTron RS, EV6 and Ioniq 5) can all get a full charge in well under an hour given a 350kW charger. The pace of improvement is incredible. Certainly, by the time the ICE and PHEV sales stop in 2030 and 2035 there will be plenty of options and people will just go to the charging hub for 15-20 minutes and get their weekly top-up. The average miles driven is under 12K, so that’s 250 miles per week and that means most cars will only need a top-up once a week.

And if you do want cables trailing everywhere then lamp-posts are almost certainly the answer. 3-phase 22kW AC charging gives 2 cars 11kW from every lamp-post. That’s a 20-100% charge in under 6 hours for almost every car on the road today.

 

[ozaudio]

While charging at home is great, there really is no need for every home to have a charge point. On a 150kW charger there isn’t a car on sale today that can’t get a 0-100% charge inside 90 minutes.

And the new 800V cars (Taycan, Audi eTron RS, EV6 and Ioniq 5) can all get a full charge in well under an hour given a 350kW charger. The pace of improvement is incredible. Certainly, by the time the ICE and PHEV sales stop in 2030 and 2035 there will be plenty of options and people will just go to the charging hub for 15-20 minutes and get their weekly top-up. The average miles driven is under 12K, so that’s 250 miles per week and that means most cars will only need a top-up once a week.

And if you do want cables trailing everywhere then lamp-posts are almost certainly the answer. 3-phase 22kW AC charging gives 2 cars 11kW from every lamp-post. That’s a 20-100% charge in under 6 hours for almost every car on the road today.

im pretty sure when lamp posts were installed, the calculations on cable size for power usage wasnt taken into factor to tap of for a 22kw charger on every post LOL.

you wouldnt spare of your upstairs lighting to power a 10Kw shower would you? haha