Where do Hamilton and Vettel rank against the greatest drivers?

[spudbynight]

If you look at the pure numbers, both Vettel and Hamilton are four-time world champions. They both also have more race wins than any other drivers apart from Schumacher.

As someone who remembers watching drivers like Senna and Prost, I find it hard to view these guys as being a league ahead of them. Personally, I think Hamilton is a fantastic driver but I wouldn't yet put him ahead of either Prost or Senna. I think Vettle is a fast driver, but despite having four titles isn't worthy of being compared to Prost, Senna or even Mansell, Picquet or Lauda.

 

[Mr Badger]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nostalgia

 

[Yaayuh!]

I find it's very hard to compare drivers over such a long period of time. It's very much apples and oranges, especially where the cars and technology is concerned.

 

[this_is_gav]

The reason the likes of Hamilton and Vettel have such vast numbers (and to an extent Schumacher) is because the teams are increasingly efficient. Reliability isn't much of a factor these days, and the likes of Mercedes and Ferrari are often a distance ahead of the opposition, especially during the hybrid era. Indeed since the start of 2014 Mercedes and Ferrari have won 89% of races, with the remaining 11% being won by Red Bull.



It's difficult to compare drivers across eras, but we can judge traits; things like control, aggression and consistency as well as speed among their peers.

Few drivers have had control, aggression and consistency as a trait throughout F1's history. I'd argue Senna lacked consistency for much of his career but so has Hamilton at times (especially when Button joined). Vettel lacks wheel-to-wheel skills, but in my mind he's undoubtedly one of the fastest drivers in the last decade, which he largely matched with consistency at Red Bull. Prost lacked aggression, but you could argue it was the lack of that trait that was key to him winning so much. Probably the closest to having all those characteristics is Schumacher.

Conversely there are traits that can't be compared. In the 50s, 60s and early 70s bravery could be found in all drivers, something that's largely missing in F1 now, where crashes often result in nothing more than a discussion of who was at fault. The reactions to crashes 40+ years ago were along the lines of "are they injured or worse?". In that regard none of the drivers in the modern era can be considered against the likes of Fangio, Ascari, Clark or Stewart.

Still in general Hamilton is certainly up there in the top 10 (and probably in the top 5) of F1's greatest drivers for me. Despite only having two titles I've no doubt Alonso is up there too. Vettel is divisive, but for me his championship stint at Red Bull is enough - I've said before several times that he could visibly do do things with that car that others simply couldn't - as Webber himself once admitted. He's not as rounded (or frankly as good) as Hamilton or Alonso now, but I think he's worthy of being on the list.

Equally there are question marks over the likes of Schumacher too, though how a seven times champion can ever be considered not great I don't know. Obviously he didn't always have the strongest of teammates but some of his on-track performances were stunning. His drive at Hungary to beat the McLarens in 1998 I regard as the best drive I have witnessed and his win at Monaco in 1995 wasn't far behind, and his wet-weather driving was second to none.

There's only one driver some consider a great that I flatly don't; Nelson Piquet, and he managed to win the title three times. He too didn't often have especially strong teammates, but circumstance and often bad luck on the part of others led him to three titles. Even Mansell generally had the beating of him, someone who despite often showing Alonso-levels of determination, few would consider a top driver.

 

[I_M_Weasel]

There's only one driver some consider a great that I flatly don't; Nelson Piquet, and he managed to win the title three times. He too didn't often have especially strong teammates, but circumstance and often bad luck on the part of others led him to three titles. Even Mansell generally had the beating of him, someone who despite often showing Alonso-levels of determination, few would consider a top driver.

Mansell only has 1 less win than Alonso off 120 less starts - 7th most wins ever, surely near the top! And he did it in a Williams admittedly a beautiful Williams.

 

[Rroff]

It is hard to compare drivers without looking at both the competition they are racing against and their actual stats in terms of lap times, etc. in otherwise equal circumstances (which isn't always easy to do with changes in rules and technology, etc.)

I was watching some random YouTube video awhile back - think it was Pikes Peak where some of the old school top drivers couldn't touch a modern day driver in a modern day car but the reverse was also true - most modern day drivers couldn't get close to man handling the old school cars around the course like the top older generation ones could even with time to practise, etc.

If you look at pole laps, etc. as much as I'm not a big fan of Hamilton most of the time he drives with a degree of decisiveness and minimal micro-corrections, etc. that would probably indicate he'd be one of the greats in any era and he is obviously atleast somewhat capable of handling the pressures of competition in a race unlike some drivers who can do a great lap solo but fold when having to race against other cars.

 

[edGfaCTor]

I agree with a lot that has been mentioned in here it is hard to compare because the eras involved different tec and rules.

Lets not forget they have far more races now as well.

Schumacher for me is the best ever he has raced in different eras and didn't just driver the best cars he was in some awful ones even helped to built teams (his final run for Mercedes wasn't great looking at stats but that car was awful plus he had massive role in building that team Ross Brawn even said this so had he been around for another season he would have been world champ again)

 

[spudbynight]

I can only really speak with any confidence for the drivers I have seen in my lifetime. That means the 80s onwards.

I think Mansell was a great driver, but a rather unlucky one. I'd actually put him ahead of Piquet who I don't rate that highly. He was as lucky as Mansell was unlucky. Of that era, neither could hold a candle to Prost and Senna. Senna is still the greatest driver I have ever seen. Some of his performances in a slow McLaren against the amazing Williams that Prost drove to his 4th title were amazing.

Schumacher was a great driver, I can't take that away from him. His wins for Benetton were very impressive. The thing is he was at his most successful in an era where he had the best car and the overall standard of other drivers was poor.

For me, any driver who manages to win a world title is a great driver to some extent. To really move above that though, a driver has to win races when in a poor car and/or against another top-tier driver in the same team. In my lifetime I would put Senna, Prost, Schumacher and possibly Hamilton into that category. I really think that Vettel is a driver who is very lucky to have achieved what he has. He won four titles in the best car on the grid. His wins came with him as the undisputed number one in his team. His performances under pressure have really shown the gap between him and Hamilton. I'd put Alonso far ahead of Vettel. Alonso, has, unfortunately, had the bad luck to mirror what Vettel received.

 

[this_is_gav]

I think Mansell was a great driver, but a rather unlucky one. I'd actually put him ahead of Piquet who I don't rate that highly. He was as lucky as Mansell was unlucky. Of that era, neither could hold a candle to Prost and Senna. Senna is still the greatest driver I have ever seen. Some of his performances in a slow McLaren against the amazing Williams that Prost drove to his 4th title were amazing.

Senna that season was something else. What I hadn't realised though was how many 1-2s Williams had... one, just a single one at Magny-Cours. It just shows how good Senna was to drag that thing around and sometimes beat a team that was often nearly 2 seconds quicker in qualifying. To finish second in the title race and just 26 points behind Prost was just... wow.

 

[Entai]

Can't believe no one has mentioned the true GOAT

In simple terms there is only one greatest driver of all time and that is Juan Manuel Fangio.

He won almost 47% of all races he entered, 52 race starts, 24 wins.

He won 5 world championships with four different manufacturers, most of which were not the fastest or best car on the grid at the time.

Look at almost every single champion since and they were in one of the very best if not the outright fastest car on the grid.

 

[crinkleshoes]

Ever since F1 went turbo, I've been somewhat dis-interested in watching.

But, with my own experiences in various vehicles, even thought the car and driving skill are nowhere near the level of these guys.

From what I have seen, Vettel is a better driver than Hamilton.

I don't rate Hamilton all that high... he's not that great of a driver... more like he's been in the right place at the right time.

Sure that happens to other drivers too, but they have the natural passion and innate skill to back up the position... whereas Hamilton doesn't even like driving all that much, from his interviews. It's not a passion for him, it's a career and a checkbox... from my days in things closer to where he was, he wasn't even the fastest driver around & I saw many other more skilled drivers who should have had the opportunities he did.

I loved watching Schumacher... some of drives were absolutely amazing. I missed most of A Sennas races... but looking back, I think him and C McRae are the best drivers I've ever seen... with Hunt, Lauder, Fangio, Prost and others whose names escape me at this moment far surpass any of the recent F1 drivers.

 

[this_is_gav]

Can't believe no one has mentioned the true GOAT

In simple terms there is only one greatest driver of all time and that is Juan Manuel Fangio.

He won almost 47% of all races he entered, 52 race starts, 24 wins.

He won 5 world championships with four different manufacturers, most of which were not the fastest or best car on the grid at the time.

Look at almost every single champion since and they were in one of the very best if not the outright fastest car on the grid.

That's simply not correct. Fangio was firmly in the best car for most of his career - the all conquering Alfa Romeo 158, the dominant Mercedes-Benz W196 and Maserati 250F.

I'll grant you that he won in a slower car in 1956 (Lancia-Ferrari D50) due to better reliability (and only because Collins handed over his car to Fangio in the final race when Collins himself would have won the title) and was pretty much toe-to-toe with Ascari's Ferrari 375 in 1951, but to say he won without the best equipment is a bit of a stretch.

 

[cu3ed]

Ever since F1 went turbo, I've been somewhat dis-interested in watching.

But, with my own experiences in various vehicles, even thought the car and driving skill are nowhere near the level of these guys.

From what I have seen, Vettel is a better driver than Hamilton.

I don't rate Hamilton all that high... he's not that great of a driver... more like he's been in the right place at the right time.

Sure that happens to other drivers too, but they have the natural passion and innate skill to back up the position... whereas Hamilton doesn't even like driving all that much, from his interviews. It's not a passion for him, it's a career and a checkbox... from my days in things closer to where he was, he wasn't even the fastest driver around & I saw many other more skilled drivers who should have had the opportunities he did.

I loved watching Schumacher... some of drives were absolutely amazing. I missed most of A Sennas races... but looking back, I think him and C McRae are the best drivers I've ever seen... with Hunt, Lauder, Fangio, Prost and others whose names escape me at this moment far surpass any of the recent F1 drivers.

Then watch more, cause that's just wrong.

 

[spudbynight]

Can't believe no one has mentioned the true GOAT

In simple terms there is only one greatest driver of all time and that is Juan Manuel Fangio.

He won almost 47% of all races he entered, 52 race starts, 24 wins.

He won 5 world championships with four different manufacturers, most of which were not the fastest or best car on the grid at the time.

Look at almost every single champion since and they were in one of the very best if not the outright fastest car on the grid.

The thing is nobody here watched Fangio drive.

I've only commented on the drivers I have watched, which is 1980s onwards. I could comment on earlier drivers but it would really just be recycling the views of others. I don't feel I am qualified to comment on drivers from the 70s back.

Senna that season was something else. What I hadn't realised though was how many 1-2s Williams had... one, just a single one at Magny-Cours. It just shows how good Senna was to drag that thing around and sometimes beat a team that was often nearly 2 seconds quicker in qualifying. To finish second in the title race and just 26 points behind Prost was just... wow.

It was something else. Some of his performances in the rain that season were just epic. I remember him winning the European GP at Donnington. He was masterful in the wet and managed to win by over a minute.

For me all the great drivers have been able to perform in cars that were not the fastest on the grid. Schumacher did it in the Benetton. Alonso did it in the Renault and again with Ferrari. Hamilton did it for years with McLaren. Even Damon Hill impressed me with a few of his drives for Arrows.

Prost was a fantastic driver and is up there with the best. His political scheming ensured he was always in a competitive car. He did at least drive in the same car as Senna.

It is something that Vettel hasn't shown he can do. He might be capable of it, but so far he hasn't shown it. In fact, he hasn't impressed this season in the Ferrari which has been the fastest car for most of the year.

 

[Rusko187]

Whilst I'm a big fan of Hamilton it's hard to compare them to someone like Senna.

Reliability and efficiency of the cars is far better then in years past not to mention accidents are perhaps not as frequent, I'm sure when we are looking into the future we will look back at these current crop of drivers and think about how great they were. For me there is no better wet driver then Hamilton, I would like him to go on and match Schumachers record for world titles but it's going to be a big ask.

Lastly I do find it sad that when a driver is successful it's down to them "being in a better car" whilst it's perhaps true to an extent I think their driving ability is what makes the difference. Hence why the likes of Bottas is not a world champion.. he's a great driver, not a world class driver.

 

[holdin09]

Ever since F1 went turbo, I've been somewhat dis-interested in watching.

But, with my own experiences in various vehicles, even thought the car and driving skill are nowhere near the level of these guys.

From what I have seen, Vettel is a better driver than Hamilton.

I don't rate Hamilton all that high... he's not that great of a driver... more like he's been in the right place at the right time.

Sure that happens to other drivers too, but they have the natural passion and innate skill to back up the position... whereas Hamilton doesn't even like driving all that much, from his interviews. It's not a passion for him, it's a career and a checkbox... from my days in things closer to where he was, he wasn't even the fastest driver around & I saw many other more skilled drivers who should have had the opportunities he did.

I loved watching Schumacher... some of drives were absolutely amazing. I missed most of A Sennas races... but looking back, I think him and C McRae are the best drivers I've ever seen... with Hunt, Lauder, Fangio, Prost and others whose names escape me at this moment far surpass any of the recent F1 drivers.

Are you serious? Hamilton is much better driver proving it many times at McLaren winning races every season in not the best car. In the race he is amazing and best on the current grid, in qualifying he something else with laps he pulls out of the bag.

Hamilton wouldn’t of threw away the win in Germany like vettel. He has matured very well and doesn’t often make mistakes these days.

Vettel was good when he was winning in the RB but if he had a better team mate than Webber he wouldn’t of won 4 championships. Although Webber was clearly a number 2 driver.

For me senna is the greatest driver ever, he literally could make the car dance.

 

[Housey]

For me, Senna/Clark

Others.

It is a subjective thing.

 

[pitkin]

The tracks help the drivers a lot more now, making it harder to compare.
Mansell chasing Senna at Japan in 1991 being a prime example. He got a wheel onto the grass and lost it, ending up in the gravel. If he'd have made the same mistake at the modern circuit, it would have been a non event, and the title fight would have carried on a bit longer.
I quite often sit, complaining shaking my head as they get away with running wide. What were once race ending offs are now very minor time losses.

 

[Rroff]

From what I have seen, Vettel is a better driver than Hamilton.

Watch some of the onboard and qualifying/pole laps - Hamilton is much more decisive on the track, fewer micro-corrections generally a little better anticipation. Would be interesting to see them in equal cars on a track neither was familiar with though.

 

[-westy-]

The tracks help the drivers a lot more now, making it harder to compare.
Mansell chasing Senna at Japan in 1991 being a prime example. He got a wheel onto the grass and lost it, ending up in the gravel. If he'd have made the same mistake at the modern circuit, it would have been a non event, and the title fight would have carried on a bit longer.
I quite often sit, complaining shaking my head as they get away with running wide. What were once race ending offs are now very minor time losses.

I seem to remember Daniil Kvyat putting a wheel on the grass at Suzuka a couple of years ago and ending up hitting the barriers and rolling? Not exactly the circuit "helping" the driver?