Where do Hamilton and Vettel rank against the greatest drivers?

Vettel is flattered by his 4 championships and is nowhere the best drivers or Hamilton, he just makes too many errors and gives into his emotion too often. Schumacher is up there certainly and you can't ignore what Hamilton has achieved. That said, as with any sport it is impossible to compare across generations. The sport has changed too much.
 
For me, Senna/Clark

Others.

It is a subjective thing.

I largely agree. Clark for me was the best. Monza 1967 he dropped from the lead as he had a puncture and went a lap down. Despite not being in the lead slipstream group he managed to unlap himself then caught back up to the leaders again, overtook them and pulled away... before his fuel pump gave up on the last lap. All that on a track with just five corners!

Senna is probably up there too, only his temperament keeping him from sharing the top spot (same reason I will never place Hamilton at the top).
 
That's simply not correct. Fangio was firmly in the best car for most of his career - the all conquering Alfa Romeo 158, the dominant Mercedes-Benz W196 and Maserati 250F.

I'll grant you that he won in a slower car in 1956 (Lancia-Ferrari D50) due to better reliability (and only because Collins handed over his car to Fangio in the final race when Collins himself would have won the title) and was pretty much toe-to-toe with Ascari's Ferrari 375 in 1951, but to say he won without the best equipment is a bit of a stretch.


In 154 the Ferrari was actually faster than both the Maserati, (Fangio won two of the first three races that year in the Maserati), and the Mercedes that Fangio then moved across teams into.
It was only Fangio's skill in both the Maserati and the Mercecdes that helped him to the Championship that year as his team mates were all outclassed by the Ferrari's.

It was only the number of retirements and a disqualification that stopped Mike Hawthorn taking that title in the faster Ferrari.

In 1955 there is a very strong school of thought that says Moss was a faster team mate than Fangio, and had 4 races notbeen cancelled that year Moss should have won eth championship in teh faster car
That's simply not correct. Fangio was firmly in the best car for most of his career - the all conquering Alfa Romeo 158, the dominant Mercedes-Benz W196 and Maserati 250F.

I'll grant you that he won in a slower car in 1956 (Lancia-Ferrari D50) due to better reliability (and only because Collins handed over his car to Fangio in the final race when Collins himself would have won the title) and was pretty much toe-to-toe with Ascari's Ferrari 375 in 1951, but to say he won without the best equipment is a bit of a stretch.


Maybe you should read up a bit more.

For virtually his entire career the Ferraris, were the faster cars.
 
Watch some of the onboard and qualifying/pole laps - Hamilton is much more decisive on the track, fewer micro-corrections generally a little better anticipation. Would be interesting to see them in equal cars on a track neither was familiar with though.

Yes, that's one of the things I'm on about... Vettel's driving indicates innate skill and an ability to play with a car on the limit.

Hamilton's driving indicates many simulator hours and knowing everything by heart in a robotic fashion, with no basic passion or skill.

Compare their driving to Senna's or Schumacher's and that might show the kind of difference I am talking about.

Vettel looks like a driver... Hamilton looks like a robot.
 
Yes, that's one of the things I'm on about... Vettel's driving indicates innate skill and an ability to play with a car on the limit.

Hamilton's driving indicates many simulator hours and knowing everything by heart in a robotic fashion, with no basic passion or skill.

Compare their driving to Senna's or Schumacher's and that might show the kind of difference I am talking about.

Vettel looks like a driver... Hamilton looks like a robot.

I nearly added at the end, hence my last sentence, Hamilton has obviously spent many many hours perfecting the tracks he races the most. But he also copes well when forced off the racing line, etc. though I think seeing them both on unfamiliar circuits could be interesting.

The best drivers though really are those that can still do it in adverse conditions and handle the unexpected.
 
Yes, that's one of the things I'm on about... Vettel's driving indicates innate skill and an ability to play with a car on the limit.

Hamilton's driving indicates many simulator hours and knowing everything by heart in a robotic fashion, with no basic passion or skill.

Compare their driving to Senna's or Schumacher's and that might show the kind of difference I am talking about.

Vettel looks like a driver... Hamilton looks like a robot.

You're the first person I've ever seen with that opinion. Most people always have Vettel a step behind Lewis.

Though this has nothing to do about F1 this is one of my favourite Hamilton stories
For me, the Istanbul GP2 weekend will always be where Lewis Hamilton truly arrived to those in the F1 paddock who hadn’t yet figured out how brilliant he was. I remember it so vividly. The Turkey weekend came off the back of the Briton’s worst event of the whole season. His championship rival Nelson Piquet Jr had thrown down the first perfect weekend in GP2 history in Budapest, taking pole position, both race wins and both fastest laps. Istanbul was the penultimate race weekend of the championship. Hamilton had to take the initiative back. But it was Piquet who again took pole and again took the race win and fastest lap… by half a second.

Hamilton, for a moment, seemed lost. His emotions had got the better of him in Hungary, something which can still blight his momentum today, and in Turkey all those years ago it looked set to derail his championship charge.

He knew he had to do something and so, overnight, he asked ART to trim all the wing off the car they could and put it basically into Monza spec. The team thought he was crazy, warning him he’d spin without the downforce. And sure enough, that’s exactly what happened at the start of Sunday’s sprint race, sending Hamilton out of the top 20 and leaving his championship hopes severely dented. What followed, however, was mesmerizing. I stood, alongside my girlfriend in the Super Aguri garage, watching in awe. One by one every engineer, every mechanic stopped what they were doing and stared at the screen agog. They applauded every lap that followed. It was a scene replicated up and down the F1 pitlane.

In spinning so early, Hamilton had learned where the limit of adhesion lay. It was a mark he would not overstep again. With substantially less downforce than his rivals, he blasted past them on the straights, and somehow held it all together through the corners. Time and again through the multi-apex Turn 8 he’d start to lose the rear but would emerge on opposite lock, almost drifting the ART through the corner. He made up every position bar the top step of the podium. In a 23-lap contest in a spec championship, without pitstops, he had overtaken almost the entire field. His fastest lap was set on the final lap and was 0.854 faster than any other driver had managed that day.

Many put that drive down to Lewis Hamilton’s guts. Most, put it down to his superior driving feel… that natural ability that had always set him out as a special and unique talent. But very few put it down his intelligence, first in going against the team in choosing the low downforce option and second in adapting his driving-style within a lap to suit a set-up he had not tested.

A lot has always been made of Hamilton’s “natural” gift and ability, and it is something that has stuck with him and formed the basis of his reputation throughout his career. But as a result of that, there’s a preconceived idea that he is a seat-of-the-pants racer who can wring the neck of a racing car like few other men on earth but who lacks any real ability to use his brain. It is a reputation that could not be further from the truth.


Source

But yes, he has no skill.
 
Yes, that's one of the things I'm on about... Vettel's driving indicates innate skill and an ability to play with a car on the limit.

Hamilton's driving indicates many simulator hours and knowing everything by heart in a robotic fashion, with no basic passion or skill.

Compare their driving to Senna's or Schumacher's and that might show the kind of difference I am talking about.

Vettel looks like a driver... Hamilton looks like a robot.

You are deluded. Any none Hamilton hater would that last sentence the other way round. You clearly know good driving as you reference Senna and Schumacher, therefore you must just dislike Hamilton for whatever reason.

Watch Hamilton’s early seasons and he could have the car dance. He has simply honed his skills and can be efficient (much like Schumacher at Ferrari).
 
You're the first person I've ever seen with that opinion. Most people always have Vettel a step behind Lewis.

Though this has nothing to do about F1 this is one of my favourite Hamilton stories


But yes, he has no skill.

What a comeback that was. Only truly great drivers do stuff like that. Reminds me of Marquez in 125 gps in Japan.
 
Given that the likes of Senna and co back in the day had to win championships the hard way with gear sticks and not the convenience of gear shift paddles, plus less safety built into the cars, less general safety rules and less engine speed restrictions (I think?) it does give me more respect for the bravery and determination of those guys.

Senna bagged 3 championships and I wonder how many more he might have won in the current era of F1. One would think that today it might be easier for him. Conversely, how well would Vettel and Hamilton have done in Senna's era, would they have achieved the same as him? I think Hamilton might have as he doesn't lack courage, particularly in the wet, and makes less mistakes than anyone.
 
I nearly added at the end, hence my last sentence, Hamilton has obviously spent many many hours perfecting the tracks he races the most. But he also copes well when forced off the racing line, etc. though I think seeing them both on unfamiliar circuits could be interesting.

The best drivers though really are those that can still do it in adverse conditions and handle the unexpected.

We've seen that basically though. If you look at new tracks in recent years the way Hamilton and to a lesser degree Alonso can nail their first lap in the first session because they can feel the grip immediately while others have to dial in a track, the difference is massive.

I'm thinking it's COTA but it could be somewhere else, where everyone came out and kept ruining the final two turns and ended up going off track and their lap times were building up lap by lap. Hamilton and Alonso came out, Alonso did much better and stayed on track but it wasn't a blistering lap, Ham came out and this is a time that he certainly didn't have a clearly miles better car, and he just first hot lap utterly nailed it. He went something like 2 seconds faster and got that corner perfect. That's not about sim, that's about conditions, it's about feel on the track, it's about getting close to the perfect feel for how much speed to take, the braking point and the line his first time through there at real speed.

people saying he drives like a robot and it's just practice makes perfect are nuts. It's the very reason Hamilton is so damn good in the wet, every time it's wet he finds laps 2 seconds faster than everyone else earlier than everyone else because he just has a feel for the track that others don't.
 
There were a couple good wet qualifying sessions this year... I think it was Hungary and Spa that were wet and I'd guess Spa with the crazy huge gap for Ham at the end, pulled a lap no one saw coming at all.

THe issue is due to rights the best you can do is a round up type video usually.

Honestly if you can find qualifying and race sessions on dailymotion of the 2007 and 2008 season there is some phenomenal "holy **** this kid is fast" moments in both seasons, most of 2007 would be mostly you thinking, how the hell is a rookie doing that.

In his first race in Australia in 2007 he didn't even get a good start, lost a space yet somehow picked out the line and just came out of T1 just ahead of Alonso and in 2nd place. In his second ever race it was Massa, Alonso, Kimi, Ham as the starting 4, Ferrari were faster iirc but a little heavier and expected to win. Alonso beat Massa off the line and Hamilton just drove around them to come out in 2nd after t2. He then drove immensely defending while Alonso shot off into the distance, caused Massa to overshoot his first proper overtake and Ham undercuts him back then Massa tries again and ends up way off track and behind Kimi with a gap to make up.

The season really only improved up till China. I think almost anyone who could rewatch those races would be pretty gobsmacked by how fast he was against a two time world champ, and everyone else. 2008 Silverstone is another wet race in which his driving was completely unmatched by anyone, also Massa is funny as hell in that race.

In terms of watching practice sessions I don't think anywhere would have them.
 
Yes, that's one of the things I'm on about... Vettel's driving indicates innate skill and an ability to play with a car on the limit.

Hamilton's driving indicates many simulator hours and knowing everything by heart in a robotic fashion, with no basic passion or skill.

Compare their driving to Senna's or Schumacher's and that might show the kind of difference I am talking about.

Vettel looks like a driver... Hamilton looks like a robot.
Vettel could make a car dance like no one else in the modern pre-hybrid era, but it's not something you can really do with these great hulking heavy things (which is possibly why he's hurting more than some other top drivers since they were introduced).

Hamilton's style looks boring, but I think he's just more consistent now and the Mercedes is still the smoothest car in terms of power delivery too. He's nearing Alonso levels of consistency though and with the speed to match.
 
Vettel could make a car dance like no one else in the modern pre-hybrid era, but it's not something you can really do with these great hulking heavy things (which is possibly why he's hurting more than some other top drivers since they were introduced).

Hamilton's style looks boring, but I think he's just more consistent now and the Mercedes is still the smoothest car in terms of power delivery too. He's nearing Alonso levels of consistency though and with the speed to match.
I think this is more a product of the current tyre regulations. These tyres appear to reward smooth driving and driver inputs, Lewis years ago from my recollection used to be quite an exuberant driver and if i recall seemed to prefer a "looser" car, at least the commentators/pundits used to say that. In the current setup we have, he has to be so precise and smooth. I think this is a bit of both driving to the requirements of the tyres and just maturing as a driver. It clearly pays off as he has demonstrated time and time again, he is one of, if not the fastest driver on the grid and he's one of the best at tyre management.
 
I think Hamilton is the overall better driver in his current form but let's not be deluded and forget the number of incidents he was involved in prior to the hybrid era.

We've seen Vettel make quite a lot of mistakes in the last few years compared to his Red Bull days.

The roles have reversed for now, both great drivers nonetheless.
 
I think Hamilton is the overall better driver in his current form but let's not be deluded and forget the number of incidents he was involved in prior to the hybrid era.

We've seen Vettel make quite a lot of mistakes in the last few years compared to his Red Bull days.

The roles have reversed for now, both great drivers nonetheless.

Indeed. I do feel Hamilton is very "Zen-like", does well under pressure, consistent and quite methodical in the car. I think we've seen enough to say Vettel doesn't do well under pressure at all and through pushing he has become clumsy.

We'll never really be able to compare then properly as they'll never be in the same car. But even though I do rate Vettel as a brilliant driver, I put Hamilton above him.
 
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