Where do Hamilton and Vettel rank against the greatest drivers?

awaybreaktoday · 28 Oct 2018 at 17:19

Hamilton should not even be in the top 200 list.....

deuse · 28 Oct 2018 at 18:22

Who's turn is it to be on suicide watch?

The_Abyss · 28 Oct 2018 at 21:29

I don't mind taking a stint, but I'll just be documenting the events rather than saving any Tifosi

Dis86 · 28 Oct 2018 at 23:16

Mr Jack said:
I always forget how much of a cheat Schumacher was. F1 used to be a much dirtier sport.

I could never forget watching him intentionally take out Damon hill. He should have received a significant ban.

Hodders · 29 Oct 2018 at 13:11

Dis86 said:
I could never forget watching him intentionally take out Damon hill. He should have received a significant ban.

And then tried it again on Jaques Villeneuve prompting Martin Brundle to comment "Not this time Michael, not this time" when he failed to damage the car. Michael Schumacher was a driven, determined hugely talented driver, but crossed the line too many times for me ever want him to win.

"Greatest drivers" lists are ultimately pointless. You can't judge on 'most wins' as drivers these days have any many more races in a season. Same goes for most poles, most points etc. World chamionships is simply a measure these days of who gets into the right team at the right time. Put Alonso/Vettel/Hamilton into the fastest team and they would have won.

Then add in the requirements for a driver today vs 50 years ago. You need a very different skill set. In the same way a top rally driver may make a very mediocre F1 driver. Cars in 1950s were totally different to today.

Is Hamilton a great driver? In today's F1, yes. Would he have been faster than Jim Clark in a 1960s lotus. Who knows.

adam cool dude · 29 Oct 2018 at 13:33

I_M_Weasel said:
Mansell only has 1 less win than Alonso off 120 less starts - 7th most wins ever, surely near the top! And he did it in a Williams admittedly a beautiful Williams.

Anyone who can do what Mansell did in Hungary 89 put him up top in my book. I rate him above Lewis. Any of the current top crop who made the move to Merc when Lewis did would be a 4 time world champion. Have to hand it to Lewis though he took a huge risk at the time and it paid off.

ci_newman · 29 Oct 2018 at 13:58

Schumacher's dirty moves on Hill and Villeneuve are ultimately what made me hate him as a driver and could never support him. No doubt he was an excellent driver, but tactics like that are for sore losers.

pitkin · 29 Oct 2018 at 14:37

ci_newman said:
Schumacher's dirty moves on Hill and Villeneuve are ultimately what made me hate him as a driver and could never support him. No doubt he was an excellent driver, but tactics like that are for sore losers.

I often wonder if joining a team that has a driver like Schumacher, who had everything weighed in his favour, how it effects the motivation of his team mates? I mean, if I knew I wasn't allowed to beat him on track, even if I was faster, or he had mechanical difficulties, my own car had to use his set up, sharing data was a one way thing, spare car was always set up for him, even when they took two and he had free choice of which he'd use, would I just drive around and take the money as Irvine did?

Reading comments from Johnny Herbert at the time, and later Rubens, suggests being Schu's team mate was far from an equal opportunities situation.

adam cool dude · 29 Oct 2018 at 16:24

pitkin said:
I often wonder if joining a team that has a driver like Schumacher, who had everything weighed in his favour, how it effects the motivation of his team mates? I mean, if I knew I wasn't allowed to beat him on track, even if I was faster, or he had mechanical difficulties, my own car had to use his set up, sharing data was a one way thing, spare car was always set up for him, even when they took two and he had free choice of which he'd use, would I just drive around and take the money as Irvine did?

Reading comments from Johnny Herbert at the time, and later Rubens, suggests being Schu's team mate was far from an equal opportunities situation.

Racing excuses. Both were not even in the same league as MSC. People seem to forget how Ferrari was in 1996 when the benneton team joined.

killem · 29 Oct 2018 at 17:49

adam cool dude said:
Racing excuses. Both were not even in the same league as MSC. People seem to forget how Ferrari was in 1996 when the benneton team joined.

You may want to watch Nico Rosbergs youtube video where he interviews Felipe Massa and they talk about what it was like to be in the same team as Schumacher.

adam cool dude · 29 Oct 2018 at 20:19

killem said:
You may want to watch Nico Rosbergs youtube video where he interviews Felipe Massa and they talk about what it was like to be in the same team as Schumacher.

When you are a 7 time world champion and 91 race winner you should be able to do what you like. People cannot seem to fathom you do not get to the top by being Mr nice guy. Life in general doesn't work like that.

killem · 29 Oct 2018 at 21:18

adam cool dude said:
When you are a 7 time world champion and 91 race winner you should be able to do what you like. People cannot seem to fathom you do not get to the top by being Mr nice guy. Life in general doesn't work like that.

Both Rosberg and Massa understood this and it seems that it had a positive effect on them as they had to become mentally stronger to fight harder for equal treatment within the team but they both still have the upmost respect for Schumacher.

pogomonkeh · 29 Oct 2018 at 21:45

Think fact that Schumacher rose to top during sennas time still holds better sway.

Also back then was harder to overtake cars. Especially coming from the back of grid, these days everyone just let's Hamilton etc past without fighting cause gotta tire/fuel manage from lap 1.

There are very little great drives these days

pitkin · 30 Oct 2018 at 11:23

adam cool dude said:
Racing excuses. Both were not even in the same league as MSC. People seem to forget how Ferrari was in 1996 when the benneton team joined.

The previous year they were 3rd in the constructors and Alesi and Berger were 5th and 6th in the drivers championship. 1 win, 1 pole, 10 podiums and 3 fastest laps between them. Hardly a team in the doldrums as many people seem to think. Shame about their reliability.

You're probably right about them not being in the same league, but when I watched Rubens have to move over for Schu, just six races into a season to give him a victory in a season that only Ferrari were going to win, I lost any respect I had for him.

pitkin · 30 Oct 2018 at 14:17

pogomonkeh said:
Think fact that Schumacher rose to top during sennas time still holds better sway.

Also back then was harder to overtake cars. Especially coming from the back of grid, these days everyone just let's Hamilton etc past without fighting cause gotta tire/fuel manage from lap 1.

There are very little great drives these days

Is if it's not easy enough, when you see a Ferrari come up behind a Haas for example, you just know they're not going to fight for position. Too many alliances in modern F1.

pitkin · 30 Oct 2018 at 14:36

I think in my 33 years of watching F1, I'd have to look at drivers who won championships that maybe shouldn't have to establish greatness. Most championships are won by the best car. There's a few times this hasn't been the case, in my opinion.
Prost in '86
Schumacher in '94
Alonso in '06

There's probably others, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

Mr Jack · 30 Oct 2018 at 15:52

pitkin said:
There's probably others, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

Personally I'd say Hamilton in '08 and '18. Ferrari was stronger - if not by a huge margin - in both years. I'm not sure I agree with Alonso in '06; Renault had a good car that year.

FrankJH · 30 Oct 2018 at 16:25

pogomonkeh said:
Think fact that Schumacher rose to top during sennas time still holds better sway.

Also back then was harder to overtake cars. Especially coming from the back of grid, these days everyone just let's Hamilton etc past without fighting cause gotta tire/fuel manage from lap 1.

There are very little great drives these days

Not true at all

MS hardly (compared to his length of career) raced Senna at all - maybe 10% of his career approximately.
MS wasn't even a single WC holder when Senna died at Imola

pitkin said:
I think in my 33 years of watching F1, I'd have to look at drivers who won championships that maybe shouldn't have to establish greatness. Most championships are won by the best car. There's a few times this hasn't been the case, in my opinion.
Prost in '86
Schumacher in '94
Alonso in '06

There's probably others, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

And yet MS should have been banned for life for what he did in 94 (let alone the highly questionable electronics in the Bennetton that year)

adam cool dude · 30 Oct 2018 at 16:55

Mr Jack said:
Personally I'd say Hamilton in '08 and '18. Ferrari was stronger - if not by a huge margin - in both years. I'm not sure I agree with Alonso in '06; Renault had a good car that year.

Hamilton was the luckiest ever in 08. Not just for that last lap Timo Glock pay check but if I am not mistaken he wouldn't have won the championship under the new points system as Massa had more wins.

I would also argue Senna in 91. The Williams was the faster car but unreliable which as we know was not the case in 1992.

Merlin5 · 31 Oct 2018 at 05:19

Most awkward and depressing post race interview ever. Mika Hakkinen almost doing a Kimi Raikkonen impersonation. Must be a Finnish thing