Which CPU

[smr]

The issue is that the Core i9 CPUs do require a decent motherboard and decent cooling too. Just search for power throttling issues WRT to the Core i9 10850K and Core i9 10900K,and that lower price starts getting eaten up by needing a decent motherboard and decent cooling.

With the Core i7 CPUs,you are only loosing two cores,but it should be much easier to cool,and require less of a motherboard.

Plus honestly if you do intend to not use a dedicated dGPU,Rocketlake makes some significant changes to the Intel IGP structure(Intel Xe) and is out next month. The current Cometlake CPUs basically use the same Skylake core which debuted in 2015 with the Core i7 6700K. Rocketlake has a new core.

You will also get access to PCI-E 4.0(which Intel lacks now,but AMD has) which will be useful for faster storage. The Core i7 11700K doesn't appear to cost much more than the Core i7 10700K:
https://videocardz.com/newz/intel-1...ke-s-cpus-prices-listed-by-multiple-retailers

It might be worth seeing how it performs.

Which Motherboards and Coolers? The thing is waiting for new tech is a constant cycle isn't it. Alder Lake will be out after the Summer with DDR5 and PCIE5. Then a few months later that's outdated..

I'm not really interested in overclocking, never been into chasing every last drop of performance.

I would probably buy a dedicated graphics card at some point too. The only game I can think of that I might be interested in would be FS2020.

 

[MartinPrince]

Which Motherboards and Coolers? The thing is waiting for new tech is a constant cycle isn't it. Alder Lake will be out after the Summer with DDR5 and PCIE5. Then a few months later that's outdated..

I'm not really interested in overclocking, never been into chasing every last drop of performance.

I would probably buy a dedicated graphics card at some point too. The only game I can think of that I might be interested in would be FS2020.

Yes, making predications on hardware that has not yet been released is a bit of a mugs games - there are so many unquantifiable variables so that coming up with a reliable strategy is full of pitfalls.

Also I believe Rocketlake is 8core vs the 10core 10850k and as @pc-guy correctly surmised unless there are massive differences in IPC then generally the more cores the better for your video encoding. Did you do all those videos on your 930?

For your cooler, I highly recommend the Arctic Freezer II 280; in stock, probably the best cooling/price/noise ratio AIO out now and you did mention you'd be looking to get an AIO. What's your budget for motherboard and RAM?

PS. That's a nice Skywatcher HEQ5 Pro you have there! I was in some Bortle 2 skies for a good while last year and dabbled in a few Milky Way shots but the deep space stuff I might try down the line.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Which Motherboards and Coolers? The thing is waiting for new tech is a constant cycle isn't it. Alder Lake will be out after the Summer with DDR5 and PCIE5. Then a few months later that's outdated..

I'm not really interested in overclocking, never been into chasing every last drop of performance.

I would probably buy a dedicated graphics card at some point too. The only game I can think of that I might be interested in would be FS2020.

To put in context,the 8C salvage of desktop Cometlake is still efficient enough to be found in HEDT replacement laptops - 10C isn't(they are all the same chip). If you look at various threads on Google,you have to choose the motherboards and coolers very carefully to avoid issues with the Core i9 CPUs,as they literally overclock themselves out of the box. The Core i9 10850K is a little less extreme in that regard than the Core i9 10900K but the bin quality is more variable.

AT reviewed it:

https://www.anandtech.com/show/16341/intel-core-i9-10850k-review-the-real-intel-flagship/24

The point at which the two processors mostly differ is on power and thermals. The Core i9-10850K is a less strict bin of the silicon, and this is showcased very much in a couple of metrics. If you get over the fact that both processors are going north of 250 W at full load, our Core i9-10850K was drawing 15-20W more peak power, which is 6-8% higher, despite being 100 MHz slower. This manifested moreso in the processor thermals, where we were easily going north of 100ºC on this newer processor.

Some reviews show it having less power consumptioon than a Core i9 10900K,so you need to be wary in case you get a poor bin. Even the best air coolers(Anandtech used a top end Noctua on an open air testbench) just about managed.

The only gripe is going to be cooling, as we used an open test bed and arguably the best air cooler on the market, and users building into a case will need something similarly substantial, probably of the liquid cooling variety.

Plus if you can't wait the 8C variants will have less issues in terms of power consumption,and cooling. It will still be a huge upgrade over what you have.

However,Rocketlake is out next month on March 15th:
https://hexus.net/tech/news/cpu/147437-intel-rocket-lake-hard-launch-tipped-monday-15th-march/

It will also bring PCI-E 4.0 to the Intel platform,which means feature parity with AMD. As it does look like you keep platforms for a longtime,it will not only be useful for future GPUs but also for storage. Almost the entirety of NVME SSDs will probably be PCI-E 4.0 in a few years time.

Also remember,Cometlake isn't going to disappear off the face of the earth in 3~4 weeks. But unlike many here,I am much more patient and have been upto 7 years on my previous platforms to AM4.

DDR5 is going to be quite expensive IMHO,ie,a bit like DDR3 was for your X58 platform when socket 1366 was first released. Even if Alderlake is decent,that DDR5 cost is going to be the problem here.

It's a shame you don't have a recent dGPU,as the Ryzen 9 3900 and Ryzen 7 5800X bundle deals do make them reasonably cheaper than normal.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

BTW,saw you are into astronomy. Mate is really into it,has one of the cooled cameras (think it uses a 1" sensor) with a tracking mount,and IR modified standard cameras too. Only issue is the weather most of the time,which conspires against them.

 

[smr]

Yes, making predications on hardware that has not yet been released is a bit of a mugs games - there are so many unquantifiable variables so that coming up with a reliable strategy is full of pitfalls.

Also I believe Rocketlake is 8core vs the 10core 10850k and as @pc-guy correctly surmised unless there are massive differences in IPC then generally the more cores the better for your video encoding. Did you do all those videos on your 930?

For your cooler, I highly recommend the Arctic Freezer II 280; in stock, probably the best cooling/price/noise ratio AIO out now and you did mention you'd be looking to get an AIO. What's your budget for motherboard and RAM?

PS. That's a nice Skywatcher HEQ5 Pro you have there! I was in some Bortle 2 skies for a good while last year and dabbled in a few Milky Way shots but the deep space stuff I might try down the line.

Yes all videos were made on my i7 930. It's actually not too bad if you just want to do basic editing but one example why it doesn't perform properly is in Adobe Premiere, if I want to automate a clip with a zoom in and out feature, in the actual software when playing on the time line it will start to zoom in a bit, pause, then jump to where it should, aside from that it's not been too much of a problem, it probably takes me about 30-40 minutes to export a 10 minute video clip.

I recently bought a dedicated astronomy camera, 26mega pixels with each image from the camera being 50mp, I did a quick stack of just a few images and load the integration in Adobe Photoshop and it really started bogging down.

Budget wise for a mobo, I was thinking around £200-250 but the lower the better obviously, there is the Z490 MSI Tomahawk for around £180, the Z590 Tomahawk is around £230.

RAM - I have no idea what to get... what would be suitable?

I've seen the 10850K for £350 now, brand new. //

I've never actually been under Bortle 2 skies, I have with Bortle 3 and was blown away by the sheer number of stars you can see. Yep the HEQ5 Pro is a fantastic mount, absolutely love mine. If you've got a DSLR and some lenses you should give deep sky a go, but just be aware, if you get bitten by the bug it can become pretty addictive and expensive! Saying that you don't need the most expensive equipment for imaging, a DSLR has lasted me for 4 years and I'll still continue to use it for AP, especially milky way shots etc.

 

[smr]

To put in context,the 8C salvage of desktop Cometlake is still efficient enough to be found in HEDT replacement laptops - 10C isn't(they are all the same chip). If you look at various threads on Google,you have to choose the motherboards and coolers very carefully to avoid issues with the Core i9 CPUs,as they literally overclock themselves out of the box. The Core i9 10850K is a little less extreme in that regard than the Core i9 10900K but the bin quality is more variable.

AT reviewed it:

https://www.anandtech.com/show/16341/intel-core-i9-10850k-review-the-real-intel-flagship/24



Some reviews show it having less power consumptioon than a Core i9 10900K,so you need to be wary in case you get a poor bin. Even the best air coolers(Anandtech used a top end Noctua on an open air testbench) just about managed.



Plus if you can't wait the 8C variants will have less issues in terms of power consumption,and cooling. It will still be a huge upgrade over what you have.

However,Rocketlake is out next month on March 15th:
https://hexus.net/tech/news/cpu/147437-intel-rocket-lake-hard-launch-tipped-monday-15th-march/

It will also bring PCI-E 4.0 to the Intel platform,which means feature parity with AMD. As it does look like you keep platforms for a longtime,it will not only be useful for future GPUs but also for storage. Almost the entirety of NVME SSDs will probably be PCI-E 4.0 in a few years time.

Also remember,Cometlake isn't going to disappear off the face of the earth in 3~4 weeks. But unlike many here,I am much more patient and have been upto 7 years on my previous platforms to AM4.

DDR5 is going to be quite expensive IMHO,ie,a bit like DDR3 was for your X58 platform when socket 1366 was first released. Even if Alderlake is decent,that DDR5 cost is going to be the problem here.

It's a shame you don't have a recent dGPU,as the Ryzen 9 3900 and Ryzen 7 5800X bundle deals do make them reasonably cheaper than normal.

I guess one thing I could do is buy now, skip PCIE4, and then when DDR5 normalises in price etc. buy into that system then, or a year or two after.

The 10700K is definitely a CPU worth considering though, thanks.

 

[smr]

BTW,saw you are into astronomy. Mate is really into it,has one of the cooled cameras (think it uses a 1" sensor) with a tracking mount,and IR modified standard cameras too. Only issue is the weather most of the time,which conspires against them.

Yep, clouds and wind!

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I guess one thing I could do is buy now, skip PCIE4, and then when DDR5 normalises in price etc. buy into that system then, or a year or two after.

The 10700K is definitely a CPU worth considering though, thanks.

The Z490 motherboards also will work with Rocketlake IIRC,so there is a sort of upgrade path there. OTH,the Core i7 10700/10700K,have nearly a 2GHZ boost clockspeed increase over your Core i7 930,6 generations of IPC increase,twice the cores and support for AVX. Then you have DDR4 and support for faster PCI-E 3.0 NVME SSDs. Its going to be a huge upgrade.

Yep, clouds and wind!

My mate gets so vexed about it - has their whole setup such they can set it up in the field easily(external batteries and laptop,etc) and then the clouds come in! Although when the stars align,they do have some really nice pictures. They are definitely more patient then me - I tried doing some more amateur shots with my Nikon 35mm frame dSLR,with an external release,and the blasted dew started to irritate me!

 

[MartinPrince]

Yes all videos were made on my i7 930. It's actually not too bad if you just want to do basic editing but one example why it doesn't perform properly is in Adobe Premiere, if I want to automate a clip with a zoom in and out feature, in the actual software when playing on the time line it will start to zoom in a bit, pause, then jump to where it should, aside from that it's not been too much of a problem, it probably takes me about 30-40 minutes to export a 10 minute video clip.

I recently bought a dedicated astronomy camera, 26mega pixels with each image from the camera being 50mp, I did a quick stack of just a few images and load the integration in Adobe Photoshop and it really started bogging down.

Budget wise for a mobo, I was thinking around £200-250 but the lower the better obviously, there is the Z490 MSI Tomahawk for around £180, the Z590 Tomahawk is around £230.

RAM - I have no idea what to get... what would be suitable?

I've seen the 10850K for £350 now, brand new. //

You need to snap up that 10850K at that price! You don't need to worry about the heat unless you're overclocking. Also some of the early heat problems were due to poor bios' using way too much power than was needed when Z490 first came out but the majority of those issues have been ironed out. I have a mate with a 10850K and it runs cooler than my Ryzen 5800X! Plus there is no guarantee that the price will drop anymore when RocketLake eventually arrives; they actually tend to go up!

I'll come back to you on the motherboard and memory - just let me do some more checking as they're about 50 Z490 boards to choose from, though I'm pretty sure of which ones I favour with good VRM's.

I saw how long it took for some of your plugins to process so you're in for a treat with how quick it will be now. I recently stacked 100 20mp moon images using my 5800X running at 5Ghz and that took 3mins 10secs, so I can imagine it taking you way, way longer on the 930!

I've never actually been under Bortle 2 skies, I have with Bortle 3 and was blown away by the sheer number of stars you can see. Yep the HEQ5 Pro is a fantastic mount, absolutely love mine. If you've got a DSLR and some lenses you should give deep sky a go, but just be aware, if you get bitten by the bug it can become pretty addictive and expensive! Saying that you don't need the most expensive equipment for imaging, a DSLR has lasted me for 4 years and I'll still continue to use it for AP, especially milky way shots etc.

The Bortle 2 skies were amazing - as it was 23c at night we could lie under the skies watching the meteors and satellites passing overhead, plus the MW stands out clearly with the naked eye. Living in Britain we just don't realise how much the light pollution gets rid of the stars. I used my Sony A72 with a Vixen Polarie tracker so got some decent images but I'm looking to pick up the A7R2 for better higher ISO images.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

The old FX CPUs ran quite cool too but required much bigger cooling requirements than some of the SB/IB CPUs which ran hotter due to a metric ton of heat output. All it means the heat density is a bit lower,but all the heat has to go somewhere. That is because the 14NM die is massive and 10C at 5GHZ is pushing it to the edge,just like the FX9590 did. AMD CPUs run hotter for the single chiplet models,due to the offset die which means more heat distribution on one side of the IHS. The dual chiplet models produce more heat,but have more even heat distribution.

AT pretty much ran their Core i7 10850K at stock and the review was done this year!! Their Core i9 10850K(might have been retail) consumed more power at stock than their Core i9 10900K sample.The sample TPU had was better than their Core i9 10900K. As AT stated the Core i7 10850K has a lower level of binning than the Core i9 10900K and why it is cheaper. So you can get lucky....or not.Again the review was done this year,ie,last month. This is why user reviews won't tell a full story,ie,if someone got lucky then it won't be the same if someone has gotten a dog.

They pretty much stated their massive Noctua air cooler was just about doable on an open air bench.

It's not so cheap when you have to throw money at an even more expensive motherboard,a more expensive CPU cooler and bigger PSU. Then you have make sure the case has to remove all that heat. That is the issue on enthusiast forums,people try to save money by spending more money.

Again people are just measurebating over benchmarks. Lots of people use laptops for video work and photo work as they can take them on location and those top out at 8C AFAIK,unless its some boutique model.

Plus if the OP is doing astro work,a desktop replacement laptop might actually be useful on location. The latest Zen3 8C laptop APUs appear to be even faster than a Ryzen 7 3700X in a number of tasks. Just food for thought.

The fact is the OP is upgrading which is 11 years old.The lack of modern extension support alone slows it down in modern software let alone even a normal Core i7 10700 is clocked 56% higher boostclock and the Core i7 10700K around 66% or thereabouts. Even at all core clockspeeds,the base clockspeed of the Core i7 10700K is around 35% higher than the base clockspeed of the Core i7 930. Plus you have double the cores.

Even a £185 Core i5 10600K which will run fine on the cheapest Z490 motherboards will destroy a stock Core i7 930. You don't "need" a top of a line Intel or AMD CPU to beat a Core i7 930. My stop gap Ryzen 5 2600 which was a £137 CPU was faster in PS,LR,DxO,video transcoding,etc by upto twice over a IB Xeon E3 1230 V2 using a form of MCE. The latter CPU would probably thrash a Core i7 930 if stuff like AVX was used. Even a £70 Core i3 10100F would easily beat a Core i7 930.

Edit!!

Also,WRT to GPUs:
https://www.theverge.com/2021/2/18/...-ethereum-mining-drivers-limit-cryptocurrency
https://videocardz.com/newz/zotac-g...-mining-test-shows-reduced-hashrate-in-action

Nvidia is trying to nerf the RTX3060 series in crypto as the BIOS implements limits. So there might be a window of opportunity to get one for closer to £300 in the next week(it launches next week) before people try and find a fix!

 

[MartinPrince]

AT pretty much ran their Core i7 10850K at stock and the review was done this year!! Their Core i9 10850K(might have been retail) consumed more power at stock than their Core i9 10900K sample.The sample TPU had was better than their Core i9 10900K. As AT stated the Core i7 10850K has a lower level of binning than the Core i9 10900K and why it is cheaper. So you can get lucky....or not.Again the review was done this year,ie,last month. This is why user reviews won't tell a full story,ie,if someone got lucky then it won't be the same if someone has gotten a dog.

Anandtech were using the Asrock Z490 PG Velocita which by all accounts is a poor motherboard. It has no extra heat dissipation on the back plate which other motherboards in the price range have and the VRM cooling is so poor that they put fans on them. If the VRM cooling is good then you don't need to put fans on them - listen to Buildzoid's overview of it. I would never recommend that motherboard.

Also Anandtech used a Thermalright True Cooper heatsink! It is not even produced anymore and from the Socket 775 days from 2008! Come on, you can't be serious!!!

I used the Z390 Asus ROG Code which was a £350 motherboard but widely considered to have poor VRM's and using exactly the same components my CPU came out 10c hotter than when using the £250 Z390 Aorus Master which has excellent VRM's. Like I said, my friend has his 10850k on his Asus Z490 motherboard and has no heat issues and it runs cooler and quieter than my 5800X.

Simply put @smr wants to get the best he can get for his particular budget and scenario usage. Unfortunately people are ignoring what he is asking for and suggesting either he gets CPU's way out of his stated budget or keeping his motherboard and using almost as old a Xeon 5670 on it. (Which I've also had) Both suggestions are quite specious and almost patronising/condescending as they seem to assume he doesn't have a clue about what he wants, something he has demonstrated he clearly does.

The only person who was what you call measure baiting is 4K8K. I can offer smr empirical advice because I use both software he has mentioned and also I have the hardware or have access to the hardware that he is interested in.

It is not just about getting an improvement on what he has - it's about getting the best bang for his stated buck; for his usage and situation. In that regard, (~£350) for Premiere Pro usage, (without a discrete GPU) it is either a 10700K or 10850K. It could not be clearer than that.

If he gets the best hardware that he wants to afford then it will tend to last him longer - which is a general axiom for us tech users.

 

[smr]

Interesting discussion guys

I found this...

Z490 motherboard VRM list
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yPS3hj_K7EPT4RBWCyjdKNP56pnwDz-IgBc0975-FUg/edit#gid=0

 

[MartinPrince]

Interesting discussion guys

I found this...

Z490 motherboard VRM list
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yPS3hj_K7EPT4RBWCyjdKNP56pnwDz-IgBc0975-FUg/edit#gid=0

Excellent find! I had one for the X470 but glad to see someone's compiled one for the Z490.

My friend has the Asus Strix Z490-E but that was a little out of your budget so I was going to recommend either the Gigabyte Aorus Elite or the Pro - though the Elite is all you'll probably need. As for memory you ideally want some decent 3600Mhz preferably C16 stuff. I'm trying to see what the cheapest that goes for but I'm sure your searching skills are better than mine.

 

[smr]

Excellent find. I have one for the X470 but glad to see someone's compiled one for the Z490.

My friend has the Asus Strix Z490-E but that was a little out of your budget so I was going to recommend either the Gigabyte Aorus Elite or the Pro. As for memory you ideally want some decent 3600Mhz preferably C16 stuff. I'm trying to see what the cheapest that goes for but I'm sure your searching skills are better than mine.

£200-£300 budget for the Motherboard is ok. I do like the look of the Rog Strix Z490-E. Is the LAN ok with them ?

The Unify sounds like a great board as well although I dont think it features quick sync support.

 

[MartinPrince]

£200-£300 budget for the Motherboard is ok. I do like the look of the Rog Strix Z490-E. Is the LAN ok with them ?

The Unify sounds like a great board as well although I dont think it features quick sync support.

If you can afford the Rog Strix Z490-E then most definitely get that over the MSI Unify - QuickSync may still work but I wouldn't take the risk, I think it does on the MEG but their lack of iGPU support is a major omission in my books and could come back to bite you.

 

[smr]

If you can afford the Rog Strix Z490-E then most definitely get that over the MSI Unify - QuickSync may still work but I wouldn't take the risk, I think it does on the MEG but their lack of iGPU support is a major omission in my books and could come back to bite you.

Do we not call it onboard graphics anymore?

Anyway, the MEG does not have it... or the Unify.

 

[Stu]

Thanks for the advice. Yes I saw the 5800X for around £380 a week or so ago, thought / knew that was a good price but tbh, after the AMD launch I have been busy and hadn't had time to read up on what to buy hence the reluctance to buy it then, even though I know it would go back up in price.

The only slight worry about the 5800X is these high temperatures some people seem to be having, but there again I'd be looking to add liquid cooling as I have now, I just prefer to cool the CPU that way instead of air. Hopefully they might be that price again soon.

It sounds like AM4 is being supported for a while and there's the option to go straight in with a PCI 4.0 setup right now with AMD, buy an AMD CPU and plug and play with the AM4 / PCI 4 compatibility.

That said I'm not sure whether pci 4 is even that important at the moment and for the foreseeable. I think it would probably make most sense to go for at least 8 cores and 16 threads...

For a budget of around £350ish from what I can see there are at least the following cpus within budget or close to it, in no particular order;

1) Wait for the 5800X to come back to £380 (if it ever will)
2) Buy an i7 10700K CPU 8C/16T 3.8Ghz for around £315
3) Buy an AMD 3800X for £320
4) Buy a 3700X 8C/16T (as I'd most likely see 0 performance difference between this and the 3800X) for £290
5) Buy an i9 10850K 10th gen for £380

Which platform and CPU to go for....

6) Buy a Xeon x5650 for £10 and overclock it to 4GHz

 

[MartinPrince]

Do we not call it onboard graphics anymore?

Anyway, the MEG does not have it... or the Unify.

At least you will know what 'iGPU' means when reading any reviews. How's the build coming on? (or not )

As you mentioned MEG, I had a full read through the Anandtech review that @CAT-THE-FIFTH referenced which concluded that the 10850k ran excessively hot, even stating that in its conclusion when choosing between that and the 5800X.

I'm slightly flabbergasted such a well respected tech publication and written by someone with Dr. in front of their name could put together such an unequal and shoddy review and yet still look to make parallels between the two systems.

They could have easily used exactly the same cooler on both CPU's but for some reason choose not to, instead using a 13 year old heatsink but still stating -

"The only gripe is going to be cooling, as we used an open test bed and arguably the best air cooler on the market"

There is no tech review site or independent reviewer that I know of that would argue that the 13 year old Thermalright True Cooper is the 'best air cooler on the market' in 2021 when it wasn't even considered the best in 2008.

Added to that, Dr. Ian Cutress - Senior CPU Editor (aka TechTechPotato) used a ~£700 motherboard for the Ryzen system but only a ~£250 one for the Intel system (and a poor one at that).

I'm trying to fathom why he wouldn't have used the equivalent ~£700 motherboard on the Intel system, namely the MSI MEG Z490 Godlike. This along with using the same cooler would have provided better equivalence to make a valid comparison. Though as it stands, it seems to me to be either incompetence or something surreptitious occurring.

It's no wonder that earnest people like @CAT-THE-FIFTH , who don't have access to the hardware, are almost duped and come away with the conclusion that 10850k's run way hotter than they should/do.

To back up what I said about early bios' causing heat issues here is a link to a user from last Sep with high heat issues (100c under load) that then became normal (74c under load) after a bios update.

https://linustechtips.com/topic/1246523-i9-10850k-is-mega-hot/