Soldato
Cheaper to run yes, but to buy and install, no!
I am assuming he doesn't have the equipment in place because of the 30 year old electric shower.
which electric shower?
- Thread starter currob
- Start date
Cheaper to run yes, but to buy and install, no!
I am assuming he doesn't have the equipment in place because of the 30 year old electric shower.
Caporegime
Oh do stop bleating. Saying someone has simple tastes is not the same as calling someone simple (though I'm beginning to wonder if both apply to you).
And you're wrong about installation and purchase. If anything a mixer shower is less to purchase than an electric and you don't need to run power cables only pipes. To make a fair comparison you need to start from nothing. You can't say it's cheaper just cause someone already has the electrics in situ.
Your point about what I say to my friends and family is even more ill thought out. This is a discussion forum, where people...discusss things? And just because Firestar_3x's parents live in a house with 4 bathrooms and pipes so long they'd rather use an electric than wait for 30 seconds while the water reaches them, that still doesn't make them better.
They're the worst option in all but the scenario where you can't afford to replace an existing electric shower installation. Take it or leave it, but it's true.
Soldato
I agree. You would need to consider running hot water for the rest of the house as well, so a combi boiler would be the best option. It would serve the shower and any other hot water taps.
I disagree
Yes i can say it's cheaper. Of course i can. If the electric cable is there already, it will be cheaper to install a replacement shower there over a new installation consisting of a heated tank, pipes and pump and mixer taps and/or combi boiler.
Sort of true, But to call them crap or the worst is not true either. All the different systems have their ups and downs.
Man of Honour
Thing is Robbie, you don't really "discuss" anything - you essentially say "I'm right, you're all wrong, everyone is talking crap" whenever somebody has a difference of opinion to you.
You're exactly the same in Motors.
Man of Honour
It's not.
A cylinder can only contain a finite amount of water.
Standard house. No combi boiler. No pumped cylinder. Conventional open vented central heating as found in millions of houses around the world.
You want a shower when the hot water has been off for a while? It won't be very warm.
You have a family of 4 who all want a shower? There won't be enough hot water.
I don't think anyone is going to argue that electric showers can compare to the flow rate of a pumped or mixer shower, but they have their place.
Soldato
For low pressure areas, you can get electric power showers that flow up to 14 LPM
Triton Aspirante for example
Triton Aspirante for example
Power showers aren't electric showers, they require a supply of hot water. Laws of physics limit electric showers to crap flow rates unless you live in Africa or some other country where the cold water temperature is so high as not to require heating in the first place.
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As other poster said, that's a power shower not an electric shower. An 'electric shower' is one that takes in cold water and heats it. If they did a 30 kW electric shower it'd be half decent, but they I've seen nothing much more than 11 kW or so. Would also cost £400/yr in electricity for three showers a day on a 30 kW.
I am about to install a replacement boiler. I have just bought house with old back boiler and hot water tank (ok maybe 10 yrs old).
We are family of 4. Do I keep tank and get pump for shower/bath or switch to combi?
My experience with combi is ok but can take ages to start heating shower upstairs and loses pressure if another tap turned on. I would consider buying good combi though like a floor standing one which can do 25 litres /min?
or keep the tank?
We are family of 4. Do I keep tank and get pump for shower/bath or switch to combi?
My experience with combi is ok but can take ages to start heating shower upstairs and loses pressure if another tap turned on. I would consider buying good combi though like a floor standing one which can do 25 litres /min?
or keep the tank?
Caporegime
With a decent combi you will never run out of hot water (unless the electrics go off) and can stand under the shower for as long as you like. If someone runs a tap or your washing machine kicks in or something, the flow will still be vastly better than an awful dribbly electric shower and the temperature will be maintained by the thermostatic valve. My hot water takes just as long to come through from my combi as it did from my old back boiler heated hot water cylinder. It's practically instant, and if you get a decent boiler I doubt this'll be a problem. It might take a few secs for it to get down a long pipe run, but then that seems a very minor inconvenience to me.
If starting from scratch, I would choose a combi every time. However installing one to replace a back boiler might cost you 3k, so really it depends on your priorities. It also depends how big your hot water tank is and whether or not there's room to install a bigger one if required. Pumping off a cylinder will do a marvellous job with a 2 bar shower pump. You can also pump the bath taps if you buy a whole house pump that can pump hot and cold independently.
However 4 people showering in the morning will push most hot water cylinders to their limits if fired by an old back boiler, unless everyone sticks to 2 minute showers, but with a combi you can each shower back to back for an hour if you want and never run out of hot water (unless you buy a boiler with no spare parts and have to wait a month to get some in!).
Combis really are much more efficient and since they don't store hot water, you don't have to heat up a whole cylinder on the days when only one person showers etc. etc. Obviously it's not just the dhw that will benefit...your heating bills really will be lower too.
Imo the best solution is an unvented cylinder with mains pressure hot water unaffected by other domestic activities. But they are expensive and complicated. Just whatever you do, if you actually want to be able to wash soap off your body in less than an hour, don't bother with an expensive to run yet horribly ineffective electric shower.
If starting from scratch, I would choose a combi every time. However installing one to replace a back boiler might cost you 3k, so really it depends on your priorities. It also depends how big your hot water tank is and whether or not there's room to install a bigger one if required. Pumping off a cylinder will do a marvellous job with a 2 bar shower pump. You can also pump the bath taps if you buy a whole house pump that can pump hot and cold independently.
However 4 people showering in the morning will push most hot water cylinders to their limits if fired by an old back boiler, unless everyone sticks to 2 minute showers, but with a combi you can each shower back to back for an hour if you want and never run out of hot water (unless you buy a boiler with no spare parts and have to wait a month to get some in!).
Combis really are much more efficient and since they don't store hot water, you don't have to heat up a whole cylinder on the days when only one person showers etc. etc. Obviously it's not just the dhw that will benefit...your heating bills really will be lower too.
Imo the best solution is an unvented cylinder with mains pressure hot water unaffected by other domestic activities. But they are expensive and complicated. Just whatever you do, if you actually want to be able to wash soap off your body in less than an hour, don't bother with an expensive to run yet horribly ineffective electric shower.
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A 30kW shower would be a nightmare to install as you would need cable of 30mm+ CSA to safely supply the 125A current required, not very practical tbh!
Caporegime
Both will kick arse. As to which, and whether or not a combi can even be installed, depends on the dynamic pressure and flow rate of your mains cold water really (the plumber should test these first before saying anything if he's any cop), but generally I'd go for the most powerful one you can afford.
Soldato
Have a look a Valiant boilers as well, they do two high flow hot water models.
One is Vaillant ecoTEC Plus 937 Power Store, gives 20 litres of hot water per minute!
http://www.vaillant.co.uk/homeowners/products/domestic-boilers/what-is-a-condensing-boiler/combi/
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Caporegime
It only gives that if the mains cold water can supply that, which is very much not a given and is why the plumber should check this before his mouth even utters a model number. Don't prompt him to do this; it'll tell you whether or not he's worth his salt.
Soldato
Robbie: I've worked with quite a few plumbers over the years, & I only seen two who actually used a mains pressure tester, to get the actual bar figure.
Most just turned the tap on, & if a good flow that was ok.
Most just turned the tap on, & if a good flow that was ok.
Soldato
Flow & Pressure are two different beasts.
If you have mains pressure of 4 bar then you can push that water up 40 metres, but once you take in other factors, pipe runs, valves, etc, by the time the water reaches the tap, you might be down to 3 bar.
You can have high pressure, but low flow, you may notice this when you turn on more than one tap elsewhere in the house.
To get a accurate flow rate, it ideally need to be done from the rising main.
Your looking for a minimum of 2 bar, but not over 5 bar.
EDIT: Water pressure can be measured 3 ways, BAR, PSI & Metres. 1 bar = 10 metres Head = 14.5 psi.
If you have mains pressure of 4 bar then you can push that water up 40 metres, but once you take in other factors, pipe runs, valves, etc, by the time the water reaches the tap, you might be down to 3 bar.
You can have high pressure, but low flow, you may notice this when you turn on more than one tap elsewhere in the house.
To get a accurate flow rate, it ideally need to be done from the rising main.
Your looking for a minimum of 2 bar, but not over 5 bar.
EDIT: Water pressure can be measured 3 ways, BAR, PSI & Metres. 1 bar = 10 metres Head = 14.5 psi.
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Water companies will only guarantee 1 bar at the kerb, that's why we have to instal expensive and costly to run and maintain boosted water systems for anything over two floors even though the actual pressure is more.