Why are tradesmen so expensive

Soldato
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Its the way you worded your op that is getting peoples back's up. I do agree that some of the prices people pay on here do sound high, but thats probably because I live up north. I'd never get away with charging £240 for 4 doors up here :(.
 
Soldato
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There is a reason these have been historically poorly paid jobs.
Really?
What reason was that?
Because historically Tradesman jobs were always a cut or two above the average. Far better than the work of mere labourers or general workers. You couldn't just do them, you needed to serve your apprenticeship, prove yourself and become qualified, go through the Journeyman stage and then finally be certified as producing masterwork before you're even allowed into the trade guild. It took many years.
The best of them were serious artisans and the craft guilds were of such high social standing that they effectively deposed the entire Merchant Class that had previously dominated that band.

Sorry, what education level do you need to become an electrician?
General Secondary School education? None.
Specific regulated and certified Electrical education? Lots. An apprenticeship is about 4 years. Plus on-the-job training is just practical education rather than bookschool classroom academia. It's still education.

A levels, degree. Thats what people consider an education.
Is that why so many booksmart "educated" types can't even tie their own shoelaces? Because it's not something they were taught from a book at Academic School?
Is that also why so many booksmart "educated" types get jobs in management and stuff up our business, costing you a load of money in increased bills?

Every job required training.
There is a BIG difference bewteen academic education and trade-specific education.
I could teach you every inch of the theory behind flying a helicopter, but no amount of bookwork qualifies you to actually hop in one and fly it competently. That still takes many many hours of supervised training.

There are plenty that require exams to become certified but to become a doctor you do 2 years of a-levels, 5 years of medical school, 2 years pre-reg and then you have plenty of other exams if you want to progress.
There are trade jobs that take just as long to qualify for their levels of expertise.

I know I'm not a qualified electrician. That doesn't have anything to do with the fact that you don't have to be particularly bright to be one
Actually you do.
What you forget is that there's a BIG difference between intelligence and wisdom.... although you clearly rolled a 1 on both!!

We don't pay people based on their intelligence, we pay them based on the job they do.
So go do it yourself, then. See how well you manage.

You can be back and forth to college to get a beauticians qualification for years, whats that got to do with anything.
You can look up medican conditions on Wikipedia without having to attend medical school.....

My very simple point is that a lot of trades charge a lot of money for a job that is not massively skilled.
Most of the people they charge have absolutely no idea what skill is involved and what it cost just to get to that level of skill and acquire that level of knowledge, let alone the cost of tools and so on.
Those few who do know how skilled it really is are still paying massive amounts of money, because they're too lazy/unskilled/busy to do it themselves and so are buying the convenience of some else's time.

Your local pubs chef probably isn't as good as a michelin star chef and their salaries reflect that.
You don't ask your local pub chef to cater for a White Tie banquet of foreign dignatories either, though. Same as you don't ask a kid with a soldering iron and a year of GCSE electronics to rewire your house.

The simple fact is that the work that residential electricians do is not very hard from a technical standpoint. Same for plumbing etc.
From a theoretical academic standpoint, perhaps. Same as carpentry. Go watch some videos of, say, Rob Cosman, see how easily he dovetails a joint in under 3½ minutes... but just you try and do it anything like how he can.
This is not your book theory, this is actual delivery of physical results and if it wasn't that hard, we'd all be doing it.
 
Soldato
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I'm laughing at this thread :D

Fez, honestly your point is valid but as said above delivered in the complete wrong way.
If you are just trolling then I doff my cap to you, if you genuinely are asking this question then I'm sorry but you've just gone about it the complete wrong way.


As for the disgruntled sparks in this thread, try looking at his question without the "doucheness" he has delivered it with and you may see his point.

to add my 2 penneth
You will find that trades when they start out are not as expensive (or they work for a company that charges you but doesn't pay them the same)
The more time spent doing their job the more experience and skill they gather and in turn become more capable and are able to charge for that.

What I also find with trades is that it is always difficult to get them to come and do smaller jobs, simply because they are normally looking for weeks/months worth of work at a time and that will probably take preference over your simple days work.

Try getting a trade to come and help build your house, you might find that their daily rate drops somewhat. :)
 
Associate
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Oh I do. The thought of paying someone £60 to fit a new wall socket or plug blows my mind. I have plumbed in a new sink, replaced almost all our sockets with double sockets, replaced bathroom fans etc and its all really simple. I know you don't pay someone for the difficulty of the work they are doing necessarily but the skill and speed at which they are capable of working but seriously. Plumbing and electrics are a really really limited area in the grand scheme of things. There is a reason these have been historically poorly paid jobs.

If it were attaching a pattress box and double socket outlet to a wall I would agree with you but are you forgetting the running the cables part? That in itself is worth £60 if the cables are being chased especially if it's from a distance. What about when a new socket outlet means extending the ring? Pulling legs out of older sockets so you can run new cables for a new socket within that ring circuit is very laborious.

Now I'll tell you what's a rip off. Plumber came round the put a cap in an unused gas outlet... 40 quid! I did the majority of the work (dug around the pipe etc). No certification needed.

Roofers came round and wanted £700 to prime and paint on some leak sealant stuff. They said part of that payment included them watching the primer dry. I went and got the stuff for £30 on Amazon and did it myself!
 
Associate
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Over £200/day is a lot for any trade but let's not forget the opposite scenario of under £100/day being very bad!

I used to work for this woman who would only pay £60/day to do work on her HMOs. Apart from me (I only did work as a friend) she would only hire Eastern Euros who did the jobs pretty badly (crooked kitchen units etc). She wasn't able to cut corners with gas/electrics & plumbing because of regulations so she had to fork out a lot of money on these trades so in a way bless gas/electricians for penalizing greedy customers like this woman by overcharging a job that can't be dodged!

For the record this women overcharged students living in her HMOs (which were like mini pig pens BTW) but when it came to REAL work as opposed to sitting on yer arse collecting rent money she would complain that anything over £60/day was too much.

If there's one thing I've noticed it's that people who appear to live a "basic" lifestyle AKA no flashy cars and want work done on their homes but don't wanna pay are usually very rich, either by bank balance or assets.
 
Associate
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This is hilarious.

This is all about not knowing what is involved in other roles than their own.
You've mentioned about Doctors having an superior education simply because they have received their TRAINING via a degree. I have been to a GP countless times where they have either messed up or not been able to diagnose without referring or looking through their encyclopaedia of symptoms - I could diagnose on the internet and be correct 50% of the time so why are they paid so much?
Of course that statement is just as absurd as the ops.

You still have to have an education to plumb, spark and chip it's just a different route and it isn't mandatory to have a degree (FYI degrees do exist - mechanical engineering and electrical engineering to name a couple)

You don't need a degree to be a chef, yet people are happy to pay for the ridiculous mark up put onto food & drink.

The intelligence of someone shouldn't be the bearer on what job they do. I know carpenters that make a killing doing what they do - this is because experience makes them amazing at what they do (skilled) and a wealth of knowledge to be able to carry out many jobs to a high standard. In fact they are in demand so they can charge what they like. It's a practical job and that can't be taught through pictures and words.

Not all surgeons are at the same level straight out of med school, right? So is their education failing them or is it actually experience that's the most valuable.

I get that you're complaining about the costs but I think it's the way you come across. As you say, the fees that solicitors charge to sign and send a few documents is staggering - to me that's not really that hard but it is what it is.

There is no end to this discussion.
 
Associate
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Electricians are just doing the jobs that lazy university types don't want to do.

So shut up and pay the going rate. Not my fault your meme degree landed you a job at Starbucks

It always amuses me when people who benefit from the exploitation of others end up on the other side of the fence.

Capitalism is great and all of you're on the winning side isn't it!
 
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Caporegime
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No real education? Wow I wish I was allowed to swear on here! I'm glad I'm not your spark if you choose to look down your nose like that. What you have posted has properly boiled my **** to be honest.

Sure in reality anyone with half a brain could probably wire a house but could they do all the calcs to ensure its safe? Yes you can find a calculator online but experience is such a massive part of it. I didnt spend 4 years back and forth to college, many years on site learning and doing god knows how many exams and courses to have some ill advised person tell me I have limited intelligence with no real education. I guess they let any numpty work on it eh?

To be fair most residential electrical and plumbing *is* easy. Although it may be harder for those of a less practical mindset. The hardest parts are usually working out what size wire you need and how best to wire a circuit/switches, both of which are easily viewed in a couple of tables and a few diagrams. All you need is a simple book to follow.

As soon as you get into industrial work or dealing certain other aspects then it can get harder.

Personally I'd argue that things like bricklaying and the more intricate parts of carpentry and decorating are more difficult, largely because they involve more "art". As long as electrical and plumbing is safe and works it doesn't really matter what it looks like, it's almost all hidden anyway, whereas the examples above are usually in full view.
 
Soldato
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I have an honours degree it computer science and various other qualifications since being in work. I know computers, I know maths and am quite practical with electronics.

I'm considered reasonably intelligent and I absolutely understand and 'get' plumbing and electronics. When my shower went wrong in my en-suite shower, I understood why and stripped it down to get to the failed part. When it came to replacing it, the reality was far different to the theory, I really struggled and ended up breaking the whole unit.

What I then did was call my uncle which is what I should have done from the get go, he's a builder, carpenter, sparkie, plumber, you name it, he's successfully run his own business for 50 years having left school at 15 and then trained as a carpenter in Kent and has always got customers via word of mouth, his van is plain and he doesn't advertise other than giving out business cards to customers.

Although I understood the theory, although I'm smart and well educated, I couldn't fix it, after he had finished taking the mick, he told me I'd suitably killed the old one and would need a whole new shower, which he got and fitted while I watched and helped.

I come from a practical background, my dad was a mechanical research engineer and worked for a top secret MOD research facility, he taught me mechanics and got me interested in computers at an early age. I can strip down a car engine and fix car bits, but I couldn't do this.

He showed me tips and tricks, seeing them, they made realise how easy and common sense they were but I lacked the experience that he had.

That's a big part of what you're paying for.

He's just retired this month retired too!
 
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whenever I have to get someone in to do something I can't do I am absolutely amazed at how much they can charge...

...anyone with half a brain could learn to do it very quickly.

Well if you had half a brain then you'd of learned how to do it by now, surely?

And if you are continuously getting people in to quote on jobs and you're surprised by the costs perhaps it's a problem with your expectations, not their inflated prices :rolleyes:
 
Soldato
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Any decent plumber this day and age will be able to supply gas/heating products which require a huge amount of training and certification. There is no money in just doing water these days. Same with electrical any significant changes need certifying.

Lets not forget most people don't also need to charge VAT* on their days wages, pension, sickness and holiday provision's inflating the price massively.

*Assuming their not just subcontracting it would be odd if they were below the limit.
 
Soldato
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Somewhere in the middle.
Its this attitude that helped me decide to ditch Plumbing/gas after 7 years and do something else. Used to wind me up fitting a bathroom and having the customer calculate some hourly rate in their head and try and get out of price quoted.

Fitting a basic suite for like 200 quid was considered too much to some. Omg that's like £25 an hour!.
Gtfo.

Things cost money. If you take a day off your highly paid job and do it yourself then well done. Otherwise just accept certain things demand certain rates.

When buying my house I didn't think that my solicitors were ripping me off for what is essentially a bit of pen and paper work. I knew that was just the way the world works. Things cost.
 
Caporegime
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Its this attitude that helped me decide to ditch Plumbing/gas after 7 years and do something else. Used to wind me up fitting a bathroom and having the customer calculate some hourly rate in their head and try and get out of price quoted.

Fitting a basic suite for like 200 quid was considered too much to some. Omg that's like £25 an hour!.
Gtfo.

Things cost money. If you take a day off your highly paid job and do it yourself then well done. Otherwise just accept certain things demand certain rates.

When buying my house I didn't think that my solicitors were ripping me off for what is essentially a bit of pen and paper work. I knew that was just the way the world works. Things cost.

And that's one of the reasons I do as much as I physically can myself. Unless I'm physically not allowed to do it (such as gas) or it's such a massive job that it's impractical (such building th framing for a whole house) then I'll do it instead.

Everything feels like such a ripoff (even though I understand the cost is not what they take home) when you get someone else in. Latest example $20,000 to lay 70 foot of pipe, which is two days work.
 
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Things like spuring off sockets are simple, but you're paying for the expertise and knowledge of a professional. If you want everything signed off it takes someone who pays literally thousands on exams and spends so much time keeping up to date with regs.

There's a lot more to it than practical work. Even so, the practical work can get a lot harder when troubleshooting a fault, I don't know about you but some lighting circuits confuse the hell out of me (if numerous switches on the same light etc).

It's like saying it's easy to become a surgeon because anyone can pick up a scalpel and slit some skin, that's just the tip of the iceberg.
 
Soldato
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I don't mind paying for trades but here in Wales getting one of the lazy buggers to do a job is murder. In a Kent 75%+ would respond to an enquiry, visit and quote. In South Wales I'm finding only 50% turn up to the appointment to view, only 50% of those quote and finally I've had a few tradesmen quote agree to do the work then not turn up. I reckon I get 15% success rate on engaging a tradesman.
 
Associate
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I just did a rewire and was haggled down on everything. Then I learned that the range oven they had bought cost more than the entire rewire job.

Not only had I competitively rewired the house, adding a lot of extra lighting, a whole new kitchen area with plenty of additional sockets, modernised the completely out of date earthing and consumer unit, modernised the meter tails to comply with current regulations. I had also provided multimedia points with power, TV aerials, phone and internet sockets and wired for SKY TV included in that price.

Then they try to haggle over £200 when they've spent THOUSANDS on a damned oven.

People just don't appreciate the work that goes into the job. They begrudge paying a professional to do a professional job but are happy to pay ridiculous disproportionate amounts on televisions, coffee makers, iPads and other such trinkets.

But that's the point isn't it. You don't get to see the craftsmanship of an electrician's work, or a plumber. The unforseen issues that arise during a job. It's just a socket, it's just a toilet bowl.

Look at my fancy food blender, it's got glossy red paint and flashing gizmo doodats on it.
 
Soldato
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I just did a rewire and was haggled down on everything. Then I learned that the range oven they had bought cost more than the entire rewire job.

Not only had I competitively rewired the house, adding a lot of extra lighting, a whole new kitchen area with plenty of additional sockets, modernised the completely out of date earthing and consumer unit, modernised the meter tails to comply with current regulations. I had also provided multimedia points with power, TV aerials, phone and internet sockets and wired for SKY TV included in that price.

Then they try to haggle over £200 when they've spent THOUSANDS on a damned oven.

People just don't appreciate the work that goes into the job. They begrudge paying a professional to do a professional job but are happy to pay ridiculous disproportionate amounts on televisions, coffee makers, iPads and other such trinkets.

But that's the point isn't it. You don't get to see the craftsmanship of an electrician's work, or a plumber. The unforseen issues that arise during a job. It's just a socket, it's just a toilet bowl.

Look at my fancy food blender, it's got glossy red paint and flashing gizmo doodats on it.

That would massively annoy me.
for me, I haggle BEFORE the job is agreed to, then the price is agreed in advance by both parties, unless you failed to carry out some of the work.
 
Associate
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What annoys me is how people seem to expect us to all be in a race to the bottom.

I have just bought a new house and discovered a bit of a rising damp problem. The previous owner had just plastered over it again but it's starting to blister through again.

I can do most of it myself. Knocking the plaster off the chimney breast and drilling it out to put the damp course in. I will have to get a plasterer to re-skim the chimney breast though and I fully expect to pay the going rate for it. I don't want a botch job on the focal point of my living room. I will put a new skirting board back on myself.
 
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