Why do we spell licence / license differently?

VIRII · 20 Jul 2007 at 11:31

Dracata said:
Actually, and unfortunately, the American is indeed correct. Cisco invented and named the 'Router' along with the correct pronunciation of the word 'Row-ter', this is a generally well known thing among the tech community (especially in the area of networking). Though it will always be known and pronounced as 'roo-ter' from me!

That is only because they pronounce "route" as "row-t" in stead of correctly which is "root".
So they are wrong because their initial error doesn't make their subsequent error correct.
Note also that an army can be "routed" (row-t) which is where the correct pronunciation of the woodworking router comes from.

To rout an army / router for woodwork. (row-t)
Route to route traffic. (root)

Hence the pronunciation "rooter" for the networking device, "root" for the journey you took and "row-t" for the army that you made flee the battlefield and row-ter for the woodworking device are all correct and the americans, who get awfully confused by things, are incorrect whether they invented a device or not given that they mispronounce "route" in the first place and clearly do not understand the orgins of "rout" and "route" and subsequent differences in pronunciation.

Arcade Fire · 20 Jul 2007 at 11:37

VIRII said:
That is only because they pronounce "route" as "row-t" in stead of correctly which is "root".

Surely different, not wrong? They have the correct pronunciation because they speak American English, which is different to British English. Languages are only defined by the people that speak them - any attempt to codify a language will only end in failure, as languages change over time. In fact, since there are c. 300 million Americans and only c. 60 million Britons, it could be argued that if you want to have one 'standard' English then we're the ones pronouncing it incorrectly!

Masterdog · 20 Jul 2007 at 11:39

Mammalian said:
ok heres another one, is the way wel spell our words the correct english, or the way the americans?

I ask because i sometimes see (though only online) people say that the british way to spell words like colour, centre, is the wrong way and we have changed it, but surely as we are english, we spell it correctly and the americans have changed it?

Also why have they changed some of the spellings of words? makes no sense as if they are going to use our language why change some of the ways to spell it.

Well language evolves over time, so there's no difference between us using a different version of English to that Shakespeare used, and the Americans using a different version to that we use. We're guilty of it ourselves - like the word 'jail'. It's technically 'gaol', but we adopted a different spelling without really realising it.
On the other hand, it's our language so we're right.

VIRII · 20 Jul 2007 at 11:40

Arcade Fire said:
Surely different, not wrong? They have the correct pronunciation because they speak American English, which is different to British English.

No it is wrong. WTF is "american english"? It is a bastardisation of the English Language. That doesn't make it "correct". It is and remains simply a bastardisation.

Arcade Fire said:
Languages are only defined by the people that speak them - any attempt to codify a language will only end in failure, as languages change over time. In fact, since there are c. 300 million Americans and only c. 60 million Britons, it could be argued that if you want to have one 'standard' English then we're the ones pronouncing it incorrectly!

So if 300 million of them decide that a Horse is now actually a Pig then we are wrong. What a silly explanation.

krooton · 20 Jul 2007 at 11:48

Arcade Fire said:
Surely different, not wrong? They have the correct pronunciation because they speak American English, which is different to British English. Languages are only defined by the people that speak them - any attempt to codify a language will only end in failure, as languages change over time. In fact, since there are c. 300 million Americans and only c. 60 million Britons, it could be argued that if you want to have one 'standard' English then we're the ones pronouncing it incorrectly!

c-aunt and c-ant

dumbasses

Arcade Fire · 20 Jul 2007 at 11:48

VIRII said:
No it is wrong. WTF is "american english"? It is a bastardisation of the English Language. That doesn't make it "correct". It is and remains simply a bastardisation.

It's a version of English spoken in America. In the same way as they speak Mexican Spanish in Mexico or Brazilian Portuguese in Brazil. Languages vary in both space and time - witness the innumerable dialects of China (or indeed the version of English that they speak in Liverpool, which almost qualifies as a dialect!) or the differences between English as spoken in this country five hundred years ago and the English we speak now.

VIRII said:
So if 300 million of them decide that a Horse is now actually a Pig then we are wrong. What a silly explanation.

Only if you want to go down the silly route of saying that there's only one English language and some people are right and others are wrong - which you apparently do, for some reason that I can't fully comprehend, but can probably speculate at.

slinxy · 20 Jul 2007 at 12:07

from the wordsmith we have in the office

"Yanks sees letters and pronounce each letter in the word but British English see words and pronounce the word as in the sentences to make sense"

What pains me is foreign kids speaking english with an American accent as all the tapes and books are from American that use in school.

VIRII said:
So if 300 million of them decide that a Horse is now actually a Pig then we are wrong. What a silly explanation.

thats what happend to the mathron chocolate bar...

Inquisitor · 20 Jul 2007 at 12:16

VIRII said:
No it is wrong. WTF is "american english"? It is a bastardisation of the English Language. That doesn't make it "correct". It is and remains simply a bastardisation.

So if 300 million of them decide that a Horse is now actually a Pig then we are wrong. What a silly explanation.

As TheMightyTen said, this happens with lots of languages. In fact it happens whenever you have two separate cultures speaking the same language; the language will naturally develop differently in each of these cultures.

What you have to remember is that a lot of the standardisation of our language has actually occurred since the colonisation of the Americas, and so it's practically expected that there'll be differences. Of course some of the differences are due to intentional modification of the language, but by no means all.

VIRII · 20 Jul 2007 at 12:33

Arcade Fire said:
It's a version of English spoken in America. In the same way as they speak Mexican Spanish in Mexico or Brazilian Portuguese in Brazil. Languages vary in both space and time - witness the innumerable dialects of China (or indeed the version of English that they speak in Liverpool, which almost qualifies as a dialect!) or the differences between English as spoken in this country five hundred years ago and the English we speak now.

Utterly irrelevent. There is one English language. There is one correct spelling in English. You can invent ultra liberal americano toffee pie hispano prtugese english if you want and they can call a "router" "heyyousteenkeeenpiiigrootah" if they want but it doesn't change the simple fact that in English the correct spelling is still the correct spelling and all variations are therefore wrong.

Arcade Fire said:
Only if you want to go down the silly route of saying that there's only one English language and some people are right and others are wrong - which you apparently do, for some reason that I can't fully comprehend, but can probably speculate at.

There IS only ONE English language. If "american english" was the SAME then it wouldn't have a different (descriptive) name would it :rolleyes:

VIRII · 20 Jul 2007 at 12:34

slinxy said:
thats what happend to the mathron chocolate bar...

I join you in mourning for that delicacy

Arcade Fire · 20 Jul 2007 at 12:50

VIRII said:
There IS only ONE English language. If "american english" was the SAME then it wouldn't have a different (descriptive) name would it

I don't think that shouting makes what you're saying any more true, unfortunately. In any case, where did I say that American English was the same as British English?

Rich_L · 20 Jul 2007 at 13:28

What a bizarre argument

Clearly if Americans were speaking English English, they'd be saying it wrong - but they don't, they speak American English, so they're saying it right, much as we are also saying it right in our English English.

I know it's a bit of a strange concept, but 2 people can have different ways of saying/spelling things, but both be right :eek:

Nikias · 20 Jul 2007 at 13:30

VIRII said:
You are indeed wrong.
Try www.dictionary.com
You are also wrong about practice.
Affect and effect are different though.

He's not wrong. Try a dictionary of British English.

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=45865&dict=CALD

or take a look in the OED.

This might help too: http://www.askoxford.com/betterwriting/spelling/?view=uk

It's based on the model of 'advice' and 'advise'. Do you advice someone to do something?

Carzy · 20 Jul 2007 at 13:33

Rich_L said:
What a bizarre argument

Clearly if Americans were speaking English English, they'd be saying it wrong - but they don't, they speak American English, so they're saying it right, much as we are also saying it right in our English English.

I know it's a bit of a strange concept, but 2 people can have different ways of saying/spelling things, but both be right

Don't be stupid. If it's something to do with "Englishness" there'll always be an argument on OcUK.

Fraggr · 20 Jul 2007 at 14:14

THEY'RE NOT INTEGRATING, AND DON'T EVEN SPEAK OUR LANGUAGE STAB :mad:

English changes over time, and if peeople live in different places it will develop differently.

Sure they are still very similar, but there's differences like pants and trousers, loo and lavatory, serviette and napkin, colour and color, etc.

Inquisitor · 20 Jul 2007 at 14:23

Fraggr said:
English changes over time, and if peeople live in different places it will develop differently.

Hit the nail on the head. It's not just English though

VIRII · 20 Jul 2007 at 14:55

Arcade Fire said:
I don't think that shouting makes what you're saying any more true, unfortunately. In any case, where did I say that American English was the same as British English?

Emphasis of the word was specifically to draw your attention to it as you appear to be having difficulty seeing. Larger letters for weaker eyesight

Oh now we've invented "british english" have we?
I guess there are also no failures just deferred successes?
There is English and there are other people who can't quite manage English who bastardise the language. You can try and excuse their lack of English skill if you wish but it doesn't wash.

mctiny · 20 Jul 2007 at 14:58

-ce / -se
Nouns ending in -ce with -se verb forms: American English and British English both retain the noun/verb distinction in advice / advise and device / devise, but American English has lost the same distinction with licence / license and practice / practise that British spelling retains. American English uses practice and license for both meanings. Also, American English has kept the Anglo-French spelling for defense and offense, which are usually defence and offence in British English; similarly there are the American pretense and British pretence; but derivatives such as defensive, offensive, and pretension are always thus spelled in both systems.

Commonwealth usage. Canadian English generally follows British usage for defence and offence and mostly for licence/license as well, although licence is sometimes used for the verb; both pretence and pretense are found, as are practice and practise for both noun and verb. Rest of the Commonwealth as UK.

It is amazing what you find on Wikipedia.org

VIRII · 20 Jul 2007 at 14:58

Crispy Pigeon said:
He's not wrong. Try a dictionary of British English.

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=45865&dict=CALD

or take a look in the OED.

This might help too: http://www.askoxford.com/betterwriting/spelling/?view=uk

It's based on the model of 'advice' and 'advise'. Do you advice someone to do something?

The OED gives the correct spelling and then the American bastardisation of it. That doesn't make it correct. It simply shows how the Americans have got it wrong.
It is not based on any model at all. To advise is a verb. Advice is not. In the US bastardised version of English licence is spelt with an S in all instances.

VIRII · 20 Jul 2007 at 14:59

Rich_L said:
What a bizarre argument

Clearly if Americans were speaking English English, they'd be saying it wrong - but they don't, they speak American English, so they're saying it right, much as we are also saying it right in our English English.

I know it's a bit of a strange concept, but 2 people can have different ways of saying/spelling things, but both be right

They'd be saying it wrongly Rich. Not wrong.

It might be worth noting the thread title too, so unless "we" refers to an inclusive group of Americans rather than British people then the answer is simply that we do NOT spell "licence" with an "s".