Why doesn't Unlimited mean Unlimited anymore? :/

[peetee]

Because there isn't another definition of unlimited, there is either limited or unlimited. You can't call one thing unlimited & then go ahead & do another thing.

adj.
Having no restrictions or controls: an unlimited travel ticket.
Having or seeming to have no boundaries; infinite: an unlimited horizon.
Without qualification or exception; absolute: unlimited self-confidence.

Virgins definition is spot on to be honest, its unlimited, but dont expect your full speed at peak times because thats just not reasonable if its going to mean QoS will be affected.

Unlimited travel ticket after all doesnt mean you can get on a peak time train that is already full.

 

[nikebee]

The problem is that people are stubborn for some reason because it says unlimited they just won't accept any other definition of 'unlimited' other than what they think it should mean.

=/

What?

Your saying there are different perceptions of "unlimited" ?

Unlimited = Unlimited.

It's as simple as this really.

If a company has "Unlimited Broadband" which really means, "Up To 40GB Usage Per Month and full speed only during low usage hours!"

Then put this in their adverts...

"Up to 40GB Broadband Usage Per Month! Only £19.99!"

Don't say it's unlimited, unless it truely is unlimited.

If it's 1 Terrabyte, say that in your ads.

 

[bigredshark]

You've got to appreciate where Shoseki is coming from though. You take your typical broadband advertising, right it's unlimited, ooh hangon there's an asterix there, right ok subject to FUP fair enough, lets have a look at the FUP, ah right ok so the FUP says it's not unlimited but doesn't say what the limit is either. Errr what am I buying if it's not unlimited?

I mentioned earlier, explicit fair use numbers are bad for the average consumer if applied uniformly. Our approach is if you download hundreds of gigs one month but usually only download 30 or 40 in a month then then in that month no action will be taken. For the average consumer thats a better outcome than being shaped to 56k the instant you pass xGB.

Explicit numbers are also less flexible, if you're breaking the FUP downloading stuff in the dead of night when the network is quiet then you'll get more sympathy than if you're doing it at peak times.

Plenty more example but the point is explicit fair use limits make it harder for the ISP to make a judgement call on whether the usage is fair.

We took a huge hit during the olympics on iplayer traffic, so we became more strict about the implementation of fair use policies for traffic like p2p, in some cases shaping it way below what we normally would. If we had an explicit FUP we would have had our hands tied.

 

[mattheman]

Just move to other providers, when it says unlimited i expect it to be unlimited, thats why i choose the package. if i wanted limimted then i would get limited but i dont, i want to use as much as i like when ever i like.

adsl providers like talk talk virgin etc are no good full of lies, they even grass you up which is another motive to move.

Over the years applications have grown in size, video on demand etc BB providers should know that downloads are going to be greater.

Why sign up with a provider that doesnt provide what they say, anyway national and international bandwidth has dropped in price, and will continue too drop.

Vote with your feet, there are plenty of provider that do offer unlimted downloads. plus when you work out the cap and the cost (price you pay)of BB with virgin et al is more expensive, compared to unlimted with a higher price per month.
companies like virgin are making massive profits, your paying more for a cap service than a non capped service (when you take into account the amount you use)

 

[bigredshark]

Well what's your opinion, forgetting legalities and technicalities, and whether or not (snigger) the ASA have gotten off their arses and done something about the blatent fibs yet? Do you believe that it's misleading advertising such services as unlimited?

Yes I do believe it's misleading. I'll be happy if the ASA does find it misleading (doubtful, based on the legal technicalities).

But until then it's legal and as it's legal it's almost a commercial necessity for ISPs to advertise their products as such if they want business from consumers.

 

[Participant]

Unlimited travel ticket after all doesnt mean you can get on a peak time train that is already full.

Yeah but at least it's written on the ticket, and blindingly obvious that if there are no seats left, you can't travel. Half of the time these people can't even tell you their own fair usage policy, either because they're thick or because it changes every few weeks!

 

[mattheman]

I get home switch on the media center and watch anything i like, i dont watch national tv nor do i have sky or cable infact sky cable full of ads it rubbish. With internet tv i stop rewind etc... when ever i like, no adverts etc... i dont understand why people still have cable or sky tv its rubbish.

 

[bigredshark]

be* ADSL2, unlimited £18 - £25pm... Not that I disagree.

I've worked in broadband since it was first being rolled out, the amount people get these days compared to what it used to be is insane...5 years ago it was £27.99 for 512MB with a usb modem, these days we offer 16x that speed, plus free international calling, take over your BT landline, that's with a wireless modem too for £25pm.

The problem is that people are stubborn for some reason because it says unlimited they just won't accept any other definition of 'unlimited' other than what they think it should mean.

Is LLU based which cuts out a huge cost. They also have pretty rubbish redundancy in their network.

They also have a contractual provision for a fair use policy as I recall they just don't do anything at present. As they expand and take on more customers (and as content requires yet more bandwidth) I expect that will likely change.

 

[mattheman]

Yes I do believe it's misleading. I'll be happy if the ASA does find it misleading (doubtful, based on the legal technicalities).

But until then it's legal and as it's legal it's almost a commercial necessity for ISPs to advertise their products as such if they want business from consumers.

lol the ASA are just like ofwat oftel etc... useless there to give consumers a false impression that things are being regulated on there behalf when infact they are not.

Regulators are there to make money from the consumers, not there to help you.

 

[peetee]

Just move to other providers, when it says unlimited i expect it to be unlimited, thats why i choose the package. if i wanted limimted then i would get limited but i dont, i want to use as much as i like when ever i like.

adsl providers like talk talk virgin etc are no good full of lies, they even grass you up which is another motive to move.

Over the years applications have grown in size, video on demand etc BB providers should know that downloads are going to be greater.

Why sign up with a provider that doesnt provide what they say, anyway national and international bandwidth has dropped in price, and will continue too drop.

Vote with your feet, there are plenty of provider that do offer unlimted downloads. plus when you work out the cap and the cost (price you pay)of BB with virgin et al is more expensive, compared to unlimted with a higher price per month.
companies like virgin are making massive profits, your paying more for a cap service than a non capped service (when you take into account the amount you use)

quite a crap irrational post tbh.
Limits will go up over time as things grow in size, but right now they are not particulaly growing that rapidly, BB companies do know that downloads will be greater, but to enforce quality of service etc they need to work within what the networks etc can provide.
You point out that certain ISPs grass you up, errm, why not try stopping illegal activitys then, im fairly sure its written into T+Cs that you dont break the law using the connection.
Take into account the cost of virgin and then compare it to others... right.. well...
You can get Virgin 10mb with phoneline, free calls to fixed landlines and 1/3rd off mobile calls, with TV service too for £25(yes you can, I had this deal at uni before anyone says you cant.)
Whereas for be... its how much? Then theres the old BT line rental..
Then I would have to get freeview.. ahh freeview, but then im missing virgin's OD service..
Not remotely comparable really, especially since I would only get capped if I downloaded a certain amount between 4-12, which I never do anyway....

If everyone moved to be internet dont you think the quality of service would suffer? It most certainly would and you would find you wouldnt be able to reach your advertised speed anymore..

 

[Matteysan]

Virgins definition is spot on to be honest, its unlimited, but dont expect your full speed at peak times because thats just not reasonable if its going to mean QoS will be affected.

Unlimited travel ticket after all doesnt mean you can get on a peak time train that is already full.

Yes they are spot on by not saying you can only use 40gb of bandwidth a month & still advertise as unlimited. I actually do think that virgins method is one of the best in terms of throttling/capping/disconnecting.

 

[bigredshark]

lol the ASA are just like ofwat oftel etc... useless there to give consumers a false impression that things are being regulated on there behalf when infact they are not.

Regulators are there to make money from the consumers, not there to help you.

Yeah, it's all a conspiracy theory....honest...

 

[peetee]

I get home switch on the media center and watch anything i like, i dont watch national tv nor do i have sky or cable infact sky cable full of ads it rubbish. With internet tv i stop rewind etc... when ever i like, no adverts etc... i dont understand why people still have cable or sky tv its rubbish.

haha..
Maybe people like to watch sporting events etc?
sky+ means you can just record loads of shows etc, easy enough.
Virgin lets you ondemand programs... thats much easier than bothering downloading them, its effectively streaming them to your settopbox, without jamming up your internet bandwidth.

 

[z0mbi3]

I mentioned earlier, explicit fair use numbers are bad for the average consumer if applied uniformly. Our approach is if you download hundreds of gigs one month but usually only download 30 or 40 in a month then then in that month no action will be taken. For the average consumer thats a better outcome than being shaped to 56k the instant you pass xGB.

Yeah that's fair enough and commendable but it boils back down to the usage of "unlimited" in advertising. I know that's not a problem for your company.

 

[mattheman]

quite a crap irrational post tbh.
Limits will go up over time as things grow in size, but right now they are not particulaly growing that rapidly, BB companies do know that downloads will be greater, but to enforce quality of service etc they need to work within what the networks etc can provide.
You point out that certain ISPs grass you up, errm, why not try stopping illegal activitys then, im fairly sure its written into T+Cs that you dont break the law using the connection.
Take into account the cost of virgin and then compare it to others... right.. well...
You can get Virgin 10mb with phoneline, free calls to fixed landlines and 1/3rd off mobile calls, with TV service too for £25(yes you can, I had this deal at uni before anyone says you cant.)
Whereas for be... its how much? Then theres the old BT line rental..
Then I would have to get freeview.. ahh freeview, but then im missing virgin's OD service..
Not remotely comparable really, especially since I would only get capped if I downloaded a certain amount between 4-12, which I never do anyway....

If everyone moved to be internet dont you think the quality of service would suffer? It most certainly would and you would find you wouldnt be able to reach your advertised speed anymore..

£10.50 line rental, free evening week end calls, £14 unlimted BB 8 meg and free tv= £24.50, free national international calls any time. you just cant beat that.

 

[platypus]

And I don't care much what you think you're entitled to. The ASA has yet to find fault with the unlimited marketing.

The main reason being because like most government agencies they are incredibely slow to act.

Because you'd like it to be nice and clear is an incredibly naive reasoning, if one ISP offers that marketing then all other consumer providers basically must to if they're to win business. Because there will always be someone who will offer it, unless it's suddenly found to be a breach by the ASA then it'll continue. They can't ban it for no reason so as long as ISPs find ways of legally justifying it then it stays.

So, because one company advertises immorally, everyone should and it's fine?

Talking to you is like talking to a Microsoft employee about the EUs lawsuits.

Whatever way you look at it, Bandwidth is not cheap. We have just had years of ISPs mis-selling their network capacities, and rather then admit their mistakes, they would rather try and mislead customers.

I'm not talking semantics, cost of bandwidth, reasonable usage or anything else. ISPs simply sell products by misleading customers.

 

[unwashed potato!]

That's like saying, unlimited access, limited use.

You can use this awesome ferrari any time you want!... For 2 seconds. BRRM!

I completely agree with OP, they should be forced to be transparent about usage caps.

havne't bothered readnig whole post but firgured i'd comment on this.

it's more like saying you can borrow this ferrari any time you want... but can only go 60mph at most. fair imo.

 

[mattheman]

haha..
Maybe people like to watch sporting events etc?
sky+ means you can just record loads of shows etc, easy enough.
Virgin lets you ondemand programs... thats much easier than bothering downloading them, its effectively streaming them to your settopbox, without jamming up your internet bandwidth.

i get my tv programmes streamed, and surf the net at the same time no problems there, infact the adsl provider i have and been with for 3/4 years, i can say is the best BB provider out there.

 

[peetee]

£10.50 line rental, free evening week end calls, £14 unlimted BB 8 meg and free tv= £24.50, free national international calls any time. you just cant beat that.

I already beat it, I said free fixed line calls, Id happily pay the extra 50p for the off peak landline hours, and the 1/3rd off calls to mobile phones.

Wheres the free tv come from? Is it on par with virgin's on demand service?
Bloody well isnt it is?
Free national international calls anytime? I thought you said free evening and weekend.
Where did all this come from?
Your posts in this thread are as disjointed as in that thread you made about your precious teeth.

 

[platypus]

it's more like saying you can borrow this ferrari any time you want... but can only go 60mph at most. fair imo.

That is pretty much a constant though, given that we have speed limits all over the world.