Wikileaks releases apache footage.

[typk]

I believe they acted like they were trained to. The people DID look like they had weapons and the RPG guy(camera) is a serious threat. They engaged the van because they said they wanted to take pictures and evidence of what happened and wouldnt be able to do that if the bodies were taken away.

I believe that this is just a mistake, they acted a little trigger happy joking about it, but you could tell it got a quite serious when they saw the guy who seemed like he was setting up an RPG.

To be honist in that situation what would you do if you thought someone was setting up an RPG?

 

[KNiVES]

This is 'winning hearts and minds' apparently. Children were involved which makes me feel a little queesy.

This video is only going to mean reprisals on US troops, but it's vitally important that the public knows just how murderous elements of their military can be.

 

[avec]

It's war, that's what happens.

They are fighting an enemy that disguise themselves as civilians, use the compassion of soldiers against them and seem to have no qualms about doing it.

This kind of thing will continue to happen as long as the enemy continue to use such tactics. Gone are the days where you could all but ignore the civilians in a war and fight the uniformed and organised army. Now everyone looks like a potential threat and as the amount of dead American/British (and other nationality) soldiers shows, the tactics have some degree of success.

I believe Louis Theroux did an interesting program on the American army training soldiers for war. That should give a little insight into the attitudes portrayed in the video.

 

[KNiVES]

It's war, that's what happens.

They are fighting an enemy that disguise themselves as civilians, use the compassion of soldiers against them and seem to have no qualms about doing it.

This kind of thing will continue to happen as long as the enemy continue to use such tactics. Gone are the days where you could all but ignore the civilians in a war and fight the uniformed and organised army. Now everyone looks like a potential threat and as the amount of dead American/British (and other nationality) soldiers shows, the tactics have some degree of success.

I believe Louis Theroux did an interesting program on the American army training soldiers for war. That should give a little insight into the attitudes portrayed in the video.

And you honestly believe this justifies the behaviour and actions shown in the video?

 

[trent]

I believe they acted like they were trained to. The people DID look like they had weapons and the RPG guy(camera) is a serious threat. They engaged the van because they said they wanted to take pictures and evidence of what happened and wouldnt be able to do that if the bodies were taken away.

I believe that this is just a mistake, they acted a little trigger happy joking about it, but you could tell it got a quite serious when they saw the guy who seemed like he was setting up an RPG.

To be honist in that situation what would you do if you thought someone was setting up an RPG?

Well seems a RPG has a range of 900m's and have very poor accuracy past 300m's and the helicopter was 1km to 1.5km's away i wouldn't be that alarmed. It would be a very lucky shot if they were able to hit a moving object 50ft big at a range of 1-1.5km away.

 

[Tefal]

Well seems a RPG has a range of 900m's and have very poor accuracy past 300m's and the helicopter was 1km to 1.5km's away i wouldn't be that alarmed. It would be a very lucky shot if they were able to hit a moving object 50ft big at a range of 1-1.5km away.

But when repositioned in a building will easily kill 4 + troops in a humvee as they drive past.

 

[shauncr91]

Well seems a RPG has a range of 900m's and have very poor accuracy past 300m's and the helicopter was 1km to 1.5km's away i wouldn't be that alarmed. It would be a very lucky shot if they were able to hit a moving object 50ft big at a range of 1-1.5km away.

So you won't mind if I shoot an RPG at you from that distance ?

And if they were insurgents, they shoud be killed at the first opportunity, regardless of their threat at the time. Otherwise they are the ones blowing you up the next day.

 

[matt_fsr]

Well seems a RPG has a range of 900m's and have very poor accuracy past 300m's and the helicopter was 1km to 1.5km's away i wouldn't be that alarmed. It would be a very lucky shot if they were able to hit a moving object 50ft big at a range of 1-1.5km away.

From what I've read, the Somalis and others have managed to modify RPG warheads to airburst at various ranges, for use against helicopters. I think thats probably why Apache crews view an RPG tube as a serious threat, even at ~1k distance.

I think the first 1/2 of the film was just one of those unlucky things that happens in war. The 2nd half was bang out of order, and should have resulted in an investigation when those gun tapes were reviewed. The Apache crew had no intel on that van at all, and we all could clearly see them trying to help a wounded man.

And to a previous poster, July 31st appears to be the last time an Apache was shot down in combat. They're good, not invincible:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aviation_shootdowns_and_accidents_during_the_Iraq_War

 

[kwerk]

Let's go walk around Baghdad with AK47s while apache helicopters fly overhead with hi-res FLIR cameras watching us.

Even better lets peak out from behind walls and point tubular objects at them!

What's the worst that could happen?

 

[SGCWill]

Meh, I think I've seen this video before.

Tough **** for the guys getting shot.

Who cares if they were civillians anyway, it's not like there's a difference between humans depending on their profession.

People see this and go "OMG! that soldier killed an unarmed civilian, what a shock, how could he?!111!"

They're trained killers following their orders, it's either kill the guys who may pose a threat, or die yourself.

You vote the government in. It's YOUR fault they are there (well, in this case the americans)

If you want people to stop getting killed, then YOU stop them.

/off topic rant
Seriously, all this "we're freeing the people who are opressed!" is just bullpoop. They wouldn't be opressed if they kicked the bad guys out. Also anyone who says "It's not that simple." or "But we have to help our fellow humans!" has obviously decided to not accept responsiblity for their own actions, and thus impose it on other people "Don't worry, we'll free you from the terrorists, because we can!"

It's all well and good giving someone a helping hand, but if they can't even lift a finger to save their own lives, you're just making them even weaker.

If we just left them alone, i'm sure they'd sort themselves out. But then someone in the 'west' will go "Human rights! we have to interfere!"

But I wonder, did we get to our own level of development by getting our asses kicked, kicking ass in return......or did we just go "someone help us!" and sat back?

 

[Surfer]

No the apache crew killed what they belived to be hostile forces.

They did not kill people saying "oh look some kind heartyed civilians have come to treat them lets shoot them"

To be honest during and just before the van attack i got that ^^ very impression from them....

Originally Posted by The Mad Rapper
It does actually.

There are far too many people commenting and criticising who have never been in that situation and have no clue what they're talking about. You're one of them.

wtf are you on...

saddened by the amount of folk trying to justify their actions as ok. Murder is fine i guess.....

They're trained killers following their orders, it's either kill the guys who may pose a threat, or die yourself.

Did you even watch the video? They were very eager/enthusiastic to start shooting up the van and people to stop them taking away the wounded man. All they wanted was the go signal from command. Hardly like they were only carrying out orders...

 

[Cybermyk]

I thought the end of operations was declared in 2003. It's kind of hard rebuilding your country if you cant pick up anything looking like tools or help wounded people in the street.

 

[Dj_Jestar]

Meh, I think I've seen this video before.

Tough **** for the guys getting shot.

Who cares if they were civillians anyway, it's not like there's a difference between humans depending on their profession.

People see this and go "OMG! that soldier killed an unarmed civilian, what a shock, how could he?!111!"

They're trained killers following their orders, it's either kill the guys who may pose a threat, or die yourself.

You vote the government in. It's YOUR fault they are there (well, in this case the americans)

If you want people to stop getting killed, then YOU stop them.

/off topic rant
Seriously, all this "we're freeing the people who are opressed!" is just bullpoop. They wouldn't be opressed if they kicked the bad guys out. Also anyone who says "It's not that simple." or "But we have to help our fellow humans!" has obviously decided to not accept responsiblity for their own actions, and thus impose it on other people "Don't worry, we'll free you from the terrorists, because we can!"

It's all well and good giving someone a helping hand, but if they can't even lift a finger to save their own lives, you're just making them even weaker.

If we just left them alone, i'm sure they'd sort themselves out. But then someone in the 'west' will go "Human rights! we have to interfere!"

But I wonder, did we get to our own level of development by getting our asses kicked, kicking ass in return......or did we just go "someone help us!" and sat back?

It's very comfortable in your armchair behind that monitor, isn't it? Wouldn't be so comfortable if you were taking your kids to school in your van and stumbled upon a number of bodies in bits and a wounded man, only to see your good Samaritan ways rewarded by a series of 30mm cannon shells head toward you and your children at 300m/s.

And "Who cares if they were civilians anyway"?!?

 

[trent]

But when repositioned in a building will easily kill 4 + troops in a humvee as they drive past.

Or you can spend a little more time to assess the situation to get a full confirmation it is a RPG.

 

[The Running Man]

"Come on buddy, all you gotta do is pick up a weapon"

isnt that symptomatic of the rules of engagement, that unless they saw them with a weapon they couldnt fire on them?

even if they had seen him RPG a humvee column 10 minutes early.

Dont think that the enemy doesnt know how weak our rules can make us.

Or that he wont be back tomorrow with his RPG/AK47 - until he gets attacked. drops weapon. runs. lives. comes back next day.

 

[trent]

So you won't mind if I shoot an RPG at you from that distance ?

And if they were insurgents, they shoud be killed at the first opportunity, regardless of their threat at the time. Otherwise they are the ones blowing you up the next day.

Yes unless you make a mistake and its actually a camera there holding.

And i would let you shoot me with anything aslong as i was out of range of the weapen you used.

 

[Plunk13]

I too was about to mention Generation Kill, and it's portrayal of (US) military forces in Iraq. There's very much an "if in doubt, kill it" attitude there, and it's very dismaying to see how often it happens. There's always collateral damage in these kinds of conflicts, but it appears that the US just doesn't give a ****.

Interesting approach the US took in "liberating" Iraq. Killing just about everything in sight.
TEAM AMERICA. WORLD POLICE. .... YEAH

 

[rypt]

When they engaged the van picking up the wounded. I was in serious shock.

Thing you have to remember is that the insurgents have had no qualms about pretending to do be doing one thing (say picking up wounded) but at the same time readying another attack.
They have no qualms about using human shields (including women and children), no qualms about using religious buildings.

I do not support either of the two wars, but I have to agree with the US view of "if it moves, kill it" as the "other side" do not abide by the rules of war.

For the record Geneva Convention does not necessarily apply as they are non-uniformed combatants as such they have no right to POW status afaik.

 

[D D Danneh]

Who cares if they were civillians anyway, it's not like there's a difference between humans depending on their profession.

So why not nuke the whole of Iraq? After all, they're only civilians.

 

[Tefal]

So why not nuke the whole of Iraq? After all, they're only civilians.

Because other people, who are actually improtant, tend to impose trade sanctions etc.

while ineffective agaisnt random african nation 5, are consideribly effective agaisnt first world developed country.