Windermere sewage = sickening

OFWAT's role in all of this is highly questionable. Like OFGEM I'm really not sure they're fit for purpose
Not fit for the purpose of serving water to the country.
Fit for the rich to take all the money though which we know is all the powers that be care about.
 
There are 3 solutions to this issue:


- Water companes close down every CSO and stop spilling into waterways. The resulting blockages, from all the stupid stuff people put down the sewers, will back up and spill out directly into your homes.
- Water companies close CSOs and spend more time jetting out all the stupid stuff people put down there. Bills increase dramatically, but at least the waterways will be clean(er).
- Water companies continue to use the CSOs, while you enjoy your comparative lower bills.

Of course, you could always renationalise the industry, which means you'll be complaining about paying higher bills to the government instead, but likely not be seeing as much in the way of improvement to the service....

Renationalise them. Fed up of greedy CEOs and shareholders scraping all the cream off the top for themselves and delivering a bad service.

Why is the CEO of a regional water company making £3.2 million a year in compensation??!!
 
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There are 3 solutions to this issue:


- Water companes close down every CSO and stop spilling into waterways. The resulting blockages, from all the stupid stuff people put down the sewers, will back up and spill out directly into your homes.
- Water companies close CSOs and spend more time jetting out all the stupid stuff people put down there. Bills increase dramatically, but at least the waterways will be clean(er).
- Water companies continue to use the CSOs, while you enjoy your comparative lower bills.

Of course, you could always renationalise the industry, which means you'll be complaining about paying higher bills to the government instead, but likely not be seeing as much in the way of improvement to the service....

I think it goes deeper than that, had their been the proper investment to upgrade the water system over the years their wouldn't be the need for such large investment now. The UK sewage system is still largely reliant on the original Victorian base design of combined sewer system.

This article is good

 
On the topic of water companies and their insatiable greed.


£3.2 million a year and £13 million for the last 4 years.

I'm sorry, but no one deserves that amount of money as a salary. It's absurd.

I mean what does she even do day to day? It's so ridiculous.
It's a hard life... attending expensive dinners to keep the gravy train rolling is basically like hard labour.
 
There are 3 solutions to this issue:


- Water companes close down every CSO and stop spilling into waterways. The resulting blockages, from all the stupid stuff people put down the sewers, will back up and spill out directly into your homes.
- Water companies close CSOs and spend more time jetting out all the stupid stuff people put down there. Bills increase dramatically, but at least the waterways will be clean(er).
- Water companies continue to use the CSOs, while you enjoy your comparative lower bills.

Of course, you could always renationalise the industry, which means you'll be complaining about paying higher bills to the government instead, but likely not be seeing as much in the way of improvement to the service....

Or the water industry could be configured in such a way that didn't allow water companies to make "profit" and pay dividends whilst not investing in infrastructure and process that doesn't involve them putting **** into our rivers and seas.

I think at this point there's no alternative but to renationalise them. Like much of the UK's infrastructure, it should never have been privatised in the first place. It's been a money grab from day 1.
 
Or the water industry could be configured in such a way that didn't allow water companies to make "profit" and pay dividends whilst not investing in infrastructure and process that doesn't involve them putting **** into our rivers and seas.

I think at this point there's no alternative but to renationalise them. Like much of the UK's infrastructure, it should never have been privatised in the first place. It's been a money grab from day 1.
I’ve always wondered if a hybrid model would work. So the government owns and maintains the infrastructure and rents it out to companies to run and provide the service.
 
I've never understood the argument that privately run operations are inherently better run than state run operations, in any industry, not just water.

Very simplistically, what difference does it make if a company's shareholders are pension funds or the state?
 
I've never understood the argument that privately run operations are inherently better run than state run operations, in any industry, not just water.

Very simplistically, what difference does it make if a company's shareholders are pension funds or the state?
i think the problem was that we had some incredibly poorly run state services.

however i do believe it has to be possible to have actually well run state operations
 
i think the problem was that we had some incredibly poorly run state services.

however i do believe it has to be possible to have actually well run state operations

We might have done, but that's my point, what is it about state run services that allowed them to be so badly run?

If a private company can come in and make billions, what mechanism is it that means state run services can't make billions.

Whether those billions are then reinvested or given to the state to support other services, it's surely better than giving rich people excessive remuneration and seeing the profits, in some cases, go to overseas companies, some of which are state owned, just not our state.
 
We might have done, but that's my point, what is it about state run services that allowed them to be so badly run?

If a private company can come in and make billions, what mechanism is it that means state run services can't make billions.

Whether those billions are then reinvested or given to the state to support other services, it's surely better than giving rich people excessive remuneration and seeing the profits, in some cases, go to overseas companies, some of which are state owned, just not our state.
I suspect that state run services lack political will to increase tariffs/prices because that will have direct consequences on the political party's support... whereas when it's a private corporation they're not answerable to voters only shareholders, and the shareholders will always say yes to more money.
 
We might have done, but that's my point, what is it about state run services that allowed them to be so badly run?

If a private company can come in and make billions, what mechanism is it that means state run services can't make billions.

Whether those billions are then reinvested or given to the state to support other services, it's surely better than giving rich people excessive remuneration and seeing the profits, in some cases, go to overseas companies, some of which are state owned, just not our state.


Ah but state run services don't make a visible profit that is easy to point at...and you as a minister don't get the chance to get a nice cushy directorship that requires an afternoon a month at an expensive restaurant or club where you earn your £100k+ a year pay by lending your expertise in the subject (of what wine tests best, and what is the best way to use the toilet when you get drunk on it).

Personally I'm wondering if the best option is possibly to run it as a non profit organisation, or rather one where the aim is to make a "profit", but that money then gets put to one side for either major investment in the system, emergency investments/repairs that are unplanned, and every few years or if it reaches a certain level every customer over that period gets a refund/credit.

Effectively have them run like a business relatively free from government ministers changing their minds every few days and pulling the money it makes as a profit out without putting it aside for reinvestment (which is basically what has happened under privatisation, except the money went to shareholders not the government), but with the requirement that all the money made is either put back into the business or refunded when the excess reaches a certain point.
 
Ah but state run services don't make a visible profit that is easy to point at...and you as a minister don't get the chance to get a nice cushy directorship that requires an afternoon a month at an expensive restaurant or club where you earn your £100k+ a year pay by lending your expertise in the subject (of what wine tests best, and what is the best way to use the toilet when you get drunk on it).

Personally I'm wondering if the best option is possibly to run it as a non profit organisation, or rather one where the aim is to make a "profit", but that money then gets put to one side for either major investment in the system, emergency investments/repairs that are unplanned, and every few years or if it reaches a certain level every customer over that period gets a refund/credit.

Effectively have them run like a business relatively free from government ministers changing their minds every few days and pulling the money it makes as a profit out without putting it aside for reinvestment (which is basically what has happened under privatisation, except the money went to shareholders not the government), but with the requirement that all the money made is either put back into the business or refunded when the excess reaches a certain point.

I think broadly we agree.

How do we structure things so that the companies operate exactly as they do in private hands but the state is effectively the 100% shareholder when it comes to receiving dividends or profits. I suspect the answer lies somewhere in dissociating running those companies from politics, but the how is very difficult.
 
I wonder how bad this will get.

Of all the environmental news the water boards and the pollution seem to tick more people off than any other isolated issue.

I guess it's so stark.

You can't switch provider.
Bills go up.
Profits go up.
Water ways etc get worse and worse.
 
The problem with state owned industry is that governments are run on 4/5 year cycles and infrastructure investment pays beck over much longer period. Governments cut those investments and end up with big bills and dilapidated infrastructure and outdated processes. It's a feature of our non-collaborative FFP system.
I’ve always wondered if a hybrid model would work. So the government owns and maintains the infrastructure and rents it out to companies to run and provide the service.

Yeah, I think that's a way forward. At least they can compete on things like customer service and billing. It's not physically possible to compete with each other on infrastructure and act, as they're legally required to do so, solely in the best interests of their shareholders. That's what the regulator was supposed to bring to bear by fining them, therefore making them less profitable. But the regulator just doesn't do it's job, the legal framework in which they act isn't right and never has been. That's the root of the problem. Thatcher's government was either extremely naive and wilfully ignorant of these criticisms of their privatisations or members of it were on the take. Same old.
 
Why is the CEO of a regional water company making £3.2 million a year in compensation??!!
Well, what salary would you command, in return for you personally taking on responsibility for the absolute **** storm that is a UK water company...?

I think it goes deeper than that, had their been the proper investment to upgrade the water system over the years their wouldn't be the need for such large investment now. The UK sewage system is still largely reliant on the original Victorian base design of combined sewer system.
The cost of that investment would have been insane, even decades ago. So much has been built on the surface in the last 100 years, from buildings to roads to motorways, to railways, that we'd have had to demolish and rebuild the majority of every town and city.
The countries where utilities do not see these sorts of construction complexities are typically those that saw heavy bombing in recent wars. This is one reason why Germany has such great infrastructure by comparison - They got levelled in WW2 and much of their systems are new builds with modern standards.

The article is OK in general terms, but not entirely accurate. The majority of sewers in places like London are not combined and most external agencies like the EA are using data that is decades old and often found in some local council archive from the years when they still ran the water. There is a plethora of surface water networks entirely separate from foul sewers. A great deal of surface water goes back into sustainable urban drainage, feeding gardens, parks and even little flower boxes in town/city centres.
Developers do often combine sewage on their part of the land, which is where the article skews the picture somewhat. Those are private assets which the water companies have no say in and are nothing to do with the public sewer network, except at the point of connection or if they otherwise impact the mains.

As far as there being no maps of the sewer system goes - I myself make use of said maps on an almost daily basis. There are some gaps in data, usually where the water company has had to adopt formerly private pipes and accurate/any records were not kept. There are also plenty of formerly council-owned local networks that are similarly hideous.


Or the water industry could be configured in such a way that didn't allow water companies to make "profit" and pay dividends whilst not investing in infrastructure and process that doesn't involve them putting **** into our rivers and seas.
The profit is return on investment and repayment/interest on loans. Without that return and repayment you get no investment and no repairs or new infrastructure. Kinda how it went back when it was still nationalised.
The discharge process came about because customers (even back then) were putting so much junk down there that blockages became a daily occurrence. Without that, the sewers are typically designed to handle additional rainfall and flooding on a scale expected only once in 30 years. Many are designed to a 1 in 50 year incident.

I think at this point there's no alternative but to renationalise them. Like much of the UK's infrastructure, it should never have been privatised in the first place. It's been a money grab from day 1.
I think it's six of one, half a dozen of the other.
Either way was

I’ve always wondered if a hybrid model would work. So the government owns and maintains the infrastructure and rents it out to companies to run and provide the service.
It should, and the concept has been bandied about before, but no-one's yet had the stones to actually use their power and make it happen.

I've never understood the argument that privately run operations are inherently better run than state run operations, in any industry, not just water.
Very simplistically, what difference does it make if a company's shareholders are pension funds or the state?
Private ownership is supposed to bring vastly higher amounts of money in investments.
The state is reliant on public borrowing for its funding, and arguably the state has a recent history of not even being able to run a fever!

We might have done, but that's my point, what is it about state run services that allowed them to be so badly run?
Everyone, not just a specific industry, is ultimately clamouring for as much of that same pot of public borrowing as they can get.

If a private company can come in and make billions, what mechanism is it that means state run services can't make billions.
The privates make billions from mortgaging and asset-stripping, and then running off with the cash.
Governments can't easily do that and much of their profit will be diverted to other public services.

You can't switch provider.
Non-domestic customers can switch provider. The same capability is intended for domestic customers at some point, but I think they have their focus on other matters right now.
But regardless of who your provider is, they will all still be buying wholesale from the same undertakers who operate and maintain the network... It's like buying your internet from WiFi Wonderful, or GigaSplat, but it still being owned and run by BT.
 
Human greed.

Virtually all the problems we face as a society are due to greed and the fact that some **** think they are worth vastly more than others.


No one is worth £2/3 million a year. The system is broken.

If you can make vast sums of money for your owners/shareholders then you are worth a huge sum of money. As with all these things. We have completely removed the personal responsibility and liability from individuals under some weird assumption that the damage to the company or profits will discourage illegal/bad behaviour. Firstly that falls apart when you see the fines vs the benefits of their law breaking. Secondly, why on earth would someone give a **** whether the company they head for 10 years struggles after they are gone if they have made many lifetimes of money in that time.

The post office scandal will be a perfect example of no one being held remotely responsible for it. Heads will roll, talk will be of lessons learned and the tax payer will almost certainly foot a monstrous bill for it.
 
I think broadly we agree.

How do we structure things so that the companies operate exactly as they do in private hands but the state is effectively the 100% shareholder when it comes to receiving dividends or profits. I suspect the answer lies somewhere in dissociating running those companies from politics, but the how is very difficult.
I think you just do as you say. Spin them into private business but the government retains at least 80% of the shares. Look at EDF. OpenAI did something similar. Though they are not government.
 
As with all these things. We have completely removed the personal responsibility and liability from individuals under some weird assumption that the damage to the company or profits will discourage illegal/bad behaviour.
The difference with things like the water industry is that neither the company nor their bosses are the ones making the calls over who owns them, who gets dividends and so on.
You'll effectively be punishing figureheads for the actions of those behind the scenes.

Water companies have seen record fines in recent years, far in excess of what a mere regulator can legally levy on them, but again it only impacts the company, not the people/entities who actually hold the purse strings behind layers of indemnification and loss protection.
 
The difference with things like the water industry is that neither the company nor their bosses are the ones making the calls over who owns them, who gets dividends and so on.
You'll effectively be punishing figureheads for the actions of those behind the scenes.

What do you mean? How do they differ from standard companies. The more money you spend running a business, the less money you have to pay out things like dividends. Who is responsible for making decisions on things like maintenance spending, reporting and general allocation of spending?
 
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