World Cup 2010 - Semi-finals **spoilers**

Tummy said:
How is losing a penalty (of which 99% of the time should be a goal) and losing a man not enough?

Your not "always" better off breaking the rules.
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In the situation we are discussing, ie. that of the dying minutes of the game, you are always better off cheating, as I explained above.

The Ghana Uruguay situation is a convenient one that illustrates the point.

Had Uruguay not deliberately hand balled that goal off the line, they were definitely out.

By cheating, even if caught, they are not definitely out. Man down in extra time, missing a player next game, facing a penalty in the last minute. Any which way you look at that situation, even though they were caught and 'punished' they were in a better situation than had they not hand balled and the ball went in.

Thus conceding a penalty and losing a man isn't punishment enough, because it still leaves you better off than conceding a goal in the last minute of play.

As said above, in open play early in the game, it is more debatable, but i'd still argue you should award a goal where a very clear and obvious goal was illegally prevented.
 
Ratbag said:
Ok quick change of subject:

Who is the most punchable player at the world cup? My vote, as ever, goes to arjen robben.
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Has to be Lucio for me - the most annoying, diving, dirtiest cheating scumbag i have seen in a while - obviously became world class at it under mourinho. You get anywhere near him and those annoying teeth of his are shown to the world, followed by a fall as if he has been shot and rolling on the floor as if he'll never walk again.
 
Kenai said:
In the situation we are discussing, ie. that of the dying minutes of the game, you are always better off cheating, as I explained above.

The Ghana Uruguay situation is a convenient one that illustrates the point.

Had Uruguay not deliberately hand balled that goal off the line, they were definitely out.

By cheating, even if caught, they are not definitely out. Man down in extra time, missing a player next game, facing a penalty in the last minute. Any which way you look at that situation, even though they were caught and 'punished' they were in a better situation than had they not hand balled and the ball went in.

Thus conceding a penalty and losing a man isn't punishment enough, because it still leaves you better off than conceding a goal in the last minute of play.

As said above, in open play early in the game, it is more debatable, but i'd still argue you should award a goal where a very clear and obvious goal was illegally prevented.
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Sorry.

Disagree. I'm sure you won't find many that agree either.

Penalty and man sent off.

As for the game being over, how much football do you watch? There are always last minute goals.
 
I really need to get to bed, so i'll sum up my position as simply as I can.

Ordinarily:

Cheating presents you with a gamble - get away with it and receive an advantage. Get caught however and your attempt at dishonest behaviour nets you or your team a disadvantage.

In this particular circumstance:

Cheating provides no gamble at all - get away with it and receive an advantage. Get caught and despite receiving a punishment, you are still in a better off position than had you not cheated. Thus you have a created a situation whereby cheating is effectively rewarded by the so called punishment.

I cannot see that it is right that you can be caught deliberately breaking the rules and yet still be better off for it than if you had stuck to the rules.

Tummy said:
As for the game being over, how much football do you watch? There are always last minute goals.
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Well then, it wouldn't have been a problem to award the goal then would it, as there could always have been a last minute goal ;)
 
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i cant believe my team is in the final said it at the beginning holland will win this and what a first goal a stunner
 
I personally think that upon reflection, the Ref should have shot Henry for his handball and awarded a penalty to Ireland.

That would have being fair.

In the Ghana game, they should have being crowned World Champions right there. Uruguay should never be allowed back in to the World Cup. Dirty cheats.
 
Don't mind who wins the other game, hopefully will be open as we expect it to be.

Wonder what the odds on a Holland v Germany final were at the start.

The most annoying player, though not particularly because of this world cup, has to be Busquets.
 
And after repeatedly skirting round the issue I have been trying to bring attention to, we're back to ridiculous comparisons and idiocy, I dunno why I bothered, you're clearly not capable of rational discussion.
 
Nor are you :)

Touche ;)

I think Germany will win tomorrow, just think they're far to lethal in attack and other then Villa Spain have offered very little.
 
Nor am I?

Everything I have posted has been sensible and relevant, without starting off about shooting people and awarding cups to people in quarter final games.

If you'd care to explain how you think it's ok that the situation I have outlined above is allowed to exist, i'm all ears (tomorrow), but so far you've avoided addressing it directly. If you'd prefer to go back to the ridiculous strawmen comparisons and point scoring, i'll just leave you to it.
 
Kenai said:
Nor am I?

Everything I have posted has been sensible and relevant, without starting off about shooting people and awarding cups to people in quarter final games.

If you'd care to explain how you think it's ok that the situation I have outlined above is allowed to exist, i'm all ears (tomorrow), but so far you've avoided addressing it directly. If you'd prefer to go back to the ridiculous strawmen comparisons and point scoring, i'll just leave you to it.
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Are we awarding goals for handballs? Cheating?

Are we awarding goals for denying a goal scoring opportunity? Ala Ole Gunner against Newcastle (iirc) he "took one for the team" to deny a goal, should they have being awarded a goal?

Are we going to award goals even if it was a mistake ? You know, ref's do make mistakes and give penalties? Would awarding them a goal not be a little unfair?

I don't see any reason to change the rules of the game over a knee jerk reaction to a missed penalty. I'd like to ask would you still be putting up this argument had Ghana scored? That would surely be "karam" wouldn't it?

Red Card (last man / denying a goal scoring opportunity) and a penalty awarded. Nothing wrong with that. Doesn't matter if you think it was "unfair" that Ghana in this example went out.

Would you still be of this opinion had it being in the first minute, Ghana scored and then Uruguay go on to score EVEN with ten men and EVEN though Ghana scored the pen?

Or should Uruguay be removed for "cheating" ?

Sorry, as far as I go, it's a non starter :)

Knee jerk reaction.
 
K1LLSW1TCH said:
Everyone shut up. We all know Germany are going to win the World Cup so there's no need to bicker over Uruguay. :p
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Germany!

Still other then the game against Uruguay Holland haven't "impressed" me per say with their football, they've been getting results though.
 
I don't really think it's worth arguing about, the referee gave a penalty and Ghana had the opportunity to score, it's not Uruguay's fault that Ghana ended up hitting the crossbar when he could've gone low into either corner and probably scored. The point is though that the referee followed the rules of the game, the opposing team fouled in the box and it's a penalty, that's the rule, it isn't anybody elses fault apart from the penalty taker.
 
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