Poll: The EU Referendum: What Will You Vote? (New Poll)

[Cosimo]

Big week ahead (Times):

Monday David Cameron was due to address cabinet ministers at the start of the week of crunch talks, but he cancelled the meeting because, sources said, too many frontbenchers had jetted off skiing.

Tuesday The prime minister will travel to Brussels to discuss his reform package with European parliament leaders. He will seek cast-iron assurances from MEPs that they will not block his emergency brake on in-work benefits for migrants.

Wednesday Donald Tusk, president of the European Council, is due to release a third draft of Britain’s deal to EU national capitals.

Thursday The summit begins in the Justus Lipsius building in Brussels. The main talks between the prime minister and the leaders of the other 27 member states on the details of the deal will take place over dinner.

Friday-Saturday Mr Cameron hopes to finalise the package and announce the deal in a press conference.

Sunday He will appear on The Andrew Marr Show on BBC One to make his pitch to Britons to vote for the UK to remain in the EU in the referendum.

I hope he sets a June date for the vote as this doesn't need to go way into 2017.

 

[Insanties_birth]

But of course! I don't think these people will be happy In or Out, really. In fact, I won't be surprised if they continue fighting amongst themselves well past the referendum whilst everyone else attempts to get on with their lives as best they can. The EU seems to have materialised as a big target for the public's feelings of discontent, listlessness and lack of control in their lives and politics; in no small part due to the populist drama over immigration, inability to process globalisation and 'simple answers to hard questions' movement, which always springs up from the woodwork when the hard times press or uncertainty is high. Understandable in parts if you follow their weird echo-chamber logic but misguided, and a highly risky proposition to build a political ideology (or actual policy, if there'll ever offer any) on. Alas, the human race is not immune from mass hysteria, that's for sure.

One can but try to reach the more sensible people on the sidelines, though. I personally think I post more for the lurkers' benefit than anything else.

Anyhow, it's set to be a very dirty and emotional plebiscite indeed. Popcorn and flame-proof jackets at the ready!

Well even if they flap there arms it all depends on what is true and not how they say it. I know some people prefer to ignore facts just due to poltical agenda's (like the rotherham and sheffield rape scandals being liberal policy agenda) but it doesn't matter how much someone says it in a way you like or don't like, you simply analyse the facts and take away the value and ignore the invaluable parts. Tough for some people I suppose but I've already shown the EU is damaging for our country with NHS, benefits, mass migration (migration is good, mass migration is handled poorly as evidenced in several links in previous post), democractic accountability for our politicians, community cohesion (racism is being bread elsewhere and only idiots would ignore what is a clear examples of swedish, french and german gangs, how many examples do people need before they recognise mass migration does more harm than good?).

The main problem is that if the EU was just the open market plus a few human rights laws we had to adhere to then fine but it's not. We're essentially a bail out for weaker countries like greece so we're guaranteed to be forced to pay what the EU tells us to pay if that happens again to other countries (hell, I can't see how it won't with forced mass migration and poor borders causing drains on lots of resources), not only are we tied to all poorly performing countries though we are also dictated to on every law imaginible with EU scrapping domestic policy that often was tailored to our needs because it was needed. There seems to never be a 'phase out' time period either it's just a case of snap judgement and then we must adhere immediately (quite damaging in taxation issues with unexpected costs). Anyway as I said, we've already seen how it's turning out in sweden, france and germany
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKAQX74yRyc&feature=youtu.be
and considering our own scandals on migrants in rotherham and sheffield we've already seen the evidence it won't be any better here. Call it arm waiving to be smart enough to have looked at examples of how the EU is working eslewhere then I can't understand why we'd want to lose democracy, lose money, lose social cohesion, lose our borders and lose the NHS / welfare state just so we can pretend that we'd be more secure. Would Germany and other EU countries really be so callous as to ignore us if we got attacked? Are we not a world power, part of the five eyes, part of Nato and united nations? We've got allies anyway, we've got organisations for protection anyway, we've got a role to play anyway and no one would shut us out of all of that just because of pettiness over EU dictatorship. Lets be honest, we might lose some money but some things are more important than just taking hand fulls of money (which I've already explained I don't believe we will get anyway in my post above).

I hear a lot of arrogant judgement from yourself but a lot of what I said is simply fact and I've provided links to how it erodes our democracy, damages welfare state, forces poor migration practices, how other countries in the EU regret there decision (not posted the links to those yet but anyone who bothers to research can see germany and sweden already classed at breaking point never mind come next year or the year after) and the videos of calais residents and german mayors failing to treat people fairly. I've yet to see much real world benefit from the EU but feel free to aleviate all our fears on such matters with childish arrogance rather than facts and sources.

You seem to view things in a very childish pleb vs pure humanitarian progressive stance. Well it's simply not working for the many reasons I've displayed but I'd also be happy to shatter your out vs in views by saying there are people who dislike what the EU does but would vote to stay in the EU (like myself) should the EU present a fair and respectable deal. Lets be honest though, they've failed in that regard and a lot of the slow and heavy handed dealings have only proven how hard it would be to get any compromise on future laws we disagree with, like drawing blood from a rock. If we could control our own immigration I'd vote in, if we didn't get that but got full control of our own laws on taxations and welfare I'd vote in but democracy is a fallacy under the EU and our welfare state was never designed around freedom of movement, health tourism, benefits going to 6 children in afghanistan (we hate when benefits scroungers from the UK do this too so it's not a case of racism but the likelihood of abuse) but the EU fails to meet previous UK standards in my opinion. It's a race to the bottom as our economy becomes so interlinked with poorer countries that we buckle and fall to there systems.

 

[Danthus]

Big week ahead (Times):



I hope he sets a June date for the vote as this doesn't need to go way into 2017.

Problem is, none of what he thinks he has got would be ratified until after any referendum is called.

 

[kitch9]

"Normal" people should not be given this much power in a Referendum because.....

I hope we dont leave the EU.

im not sure of the ramifications to me being in Sweden as a UK citizen after a split.

Probably more paperwork and a big gold 6 pointed star on my jacket...

So basically you want a totalitarian government who doesn't give the public a say because they might say the wrong thing?

I hear Syria is a nice place this time of year. Just need to get the civil war out of the way and it might be right up your alley.

 

[Schlong&Stable]

This has been presented time and time again though, people don't want to read facts and statistics that show how it would affect us, they just want to be 'out' of the EU.

But we're not going to stop trading with the EU under any circumstances, so these statistics and facts are flawed. At worst we'll have to pay a tariff, but then that would possibly benefit the UK, because we are a net importer from the EU. We'd gain more than we lose on tariff's, which is why the EU are very likely to accept some sort of Free Trade deal off the bat.

 

[RaohNS]

snip

Very good post.

I was especially drawn to the part about police protecting migrants. I work Cheshire way a couple of days a week and a few weeks ago there was an active police cover up into an incident at a school.

The Police and press reported: The rumours on Facebook are incorrect... That's they can confirm there was an incident between a pupil and a former pupil where a teach received superficial injuries.

The Facts: After several weeks of issues at the school 20+ Slovakian men stormed onto the school premises trying to attack select kids assaulting 4 teachers (2 of which needed hospital treatment) and made comments such as "you English will bow down to us".

I've seen a couple of pieces of shaky cam footage showing it plus a persons sister goes the school. Out of curiosity I called the 101 and asked why this was being lied about. The PC on the other end of the phone just stayed silent when I asked about why they were lying to the public, what about the students and teachers who had been attacked? Silence.

A lot of cultures coming here do refuse to integrate. This boards favorite group is one such example. Where only a small portion will integrate.

That is the thing I hate about the PC ******* system. Fact is fact. Right is right. The Rotherham abuse was attempted to be covered too along with multiple others.

 

[Insanties_birth]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-2m-britons-abroad-illegal-immigrants-eu-echr

How are we meant to make an informed choice?

I will be honest, I have no idea which article is correct.

The telegraph article came later (hint it was researched longer) but also cites a clear law as to the given reason as to why they can't be deported. With the article being later, having more clear indication of the legal standing and being better researched due to various statistics and analysis it looks like a far more accurate and truthful account. Note that the guardian article merely metions 'two million UK citizens working abroad could become illegal immigrants ' but based on the law we have that has been debunked. something tells me the EU wouldn't want a PR nightmare and a load of jobs from companies to be forced away during economic collapse, mass migration instability and the obvious idea that this would have only happened under brexit anyway so the loss of members.

Sounds like there's no legal basis for it but it was either scaremongering as per usual or just a genuine concern that was raised but debunked.

 

[Cosimo]

"Normal" people should not be given this much power in a Referendum because.....

I hope we dont leave the EU.

im not sure of the ramifications to me being in Sweden as a UK citizen after a split.

Probably more paperwork and a big gold 6 pointed star on my jacket...

Well if you only have a select few with a vote then you might end up with a sign on your jacket.

 

[scorza]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-2m-britons-abroad-illegal-immigrants-eu-echr

How are we meant to make an informed choice?

I will be honest, I have no idea which article is correct.

It's called judgement - a useful life skill to learn. Does 2 million British expatriates becoming illegal immigrants overnight sound right to you or does the concept of 'acquired rights' as specified in the 1969 Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties sound more plausible?

It's also important to understand that if we vote to Leave the EU, then we will not leave the EU on the day after the vote - if we're actually allowed to leave (which personally I doubt) then there'll be months of negotiations to work out the terms of the UK's withdrawal.

 

[RDM]

The Police and press reported: The rumours on Facebook are incorrect... That's they can confirm there was an incident between a pupil and a former pupil where a teach received superficial injuries.

The Facts: After several weeks of issues at the school 20+ Slovakian men stormed onto the school premises trying to attack select kids assaulting 4 teachers (2 of which needed hospital treatment) and made comments such as "you English will bow down to us".

Which school was this? I teach in Cheshire and teachers are terrible gossips and there hasn't even been a whisper of this incident. Considering how voiciferous the teaching unions are about injuries to teachers I am surprised they weren't shouting it from the rooftops.

 

[Cosimo]

Problem is, none of what he thinks he has got would be ratified until after any referendum is called.

Not really a problem as making your mind up on such an important issue will not just be based on a piece of paper (worthless or not) he may show us?

 

[Insanties_birth]

Very good post.

I was especially drawn to the part about police protecting migrants. I work Cheshire way a couple of days a week and a few weeks ago there was an active police cover up into an incident at a school.

The Police and press reported: The rumours on Facebook are incorrect... That's they can confirm there was an incident between a pupil and a former pupil where a teach received superficial injuries.

The Facts: After several weeks of issues at the school 20+ Slovakian men stormed onto the school premises trying to attack select kids assaulting 4 teachers (2 of which needed hospital treatment) and made comments such as "you English will bow down to us".

I've seen a couple of pieces of shaky cam footage showing it plus a persons sister goes the school. Out of curiosity I called the 101 and asked why this was being lied about. The PC on the other end of the phone just stayed silent when I asked about why they were lying to the public, what about the students and teachers who had been attacked? Silence.

A lot of cultures coming here do refuse to integrate. This boards favorite group is one such example. Where only a small portion will integrate.

That is the thing I hate about the PC ******* system. Fact is fact. Right is right. The Rotherham abuse was attempted to be covered too along with multiple others.

Exactly and I've tried to provide evidence with the scandals in rotherham, sheffield etc. It wasn't just one city, it wasn't even just one country (with sweden, germany, EU council etc. lying and trying to cover things up). That is the real problem, everything we hear positive about the EU will be fact, everythng we hear negative about the EU will be partially covered up and worse than it actually seems (okay not everything but still even a few cases can cause misconceptions).

I've also pointed to sharia courts presenting confusion on accepted legal practice / cohesion as well but I thank you for chiming in with your views. Some people refuse to even acknowledge these sort of things no matter how much evidence is presented but it's a scandal, it's a 2 tier system of inequality where we are being treat worse in the eyes of the law to cover up those they want to protect. It is damningly corrupt and it's already been seen to happen in other countries and our own with those scandals as if raping children was something that should just be brushed under the rug for some people because they are so morally bankrupt and spineless that they could sell there mothers for a can of pop. But one thing I never even mentioned is how this is phasing into our new political climate, our jails are currently overrun and cameron is moving ahead with laws to go ahead with 'tagging' and 'rehabilatation' rather than even locking people up. So what happens when our already soft on immigrants policy meets a whole new wave of soft on crime and too crowded to put them away jails? It's going to be a nightmare of recurring crime that gets covered up because no police institution is honestly going to admit they've lost control, that they don't have spaces in jail, that they're being too soft and won't touch migrants. Hell, even if they do (lets be politically correct here) then we'll still have too few spaces for the new arrivals so they'll get short sentences and we'll end up having less spaces for our criminals too. The new environment of policing, jails and justice is just going to be another farce. We'll end up with areas destitute to criminality no different to calais, cologne and sweden where gangs feel they have to rise up to protect there own since police, governments and the EU don't want to even acknowledge these issues. We've already had it ongoing for years in Roterham and Sheffield already, a lot of blind fools don't even want to acknowledge how dangerous this situation could be for some communities when police only ever crack down and criminalise those who are aiming for self defense when the governments and police fail them. We've seen gangs rise up in germany and sweden and france and I'd rather avoid a situation where that has to happen but whether through confirmation bias, lack of understanding of cause and effect or just failure to understand the nature of failing criminal systems combined with migrant crime it seems like some people don't understand or care how staying in the EU is practically guaranteed to just cause these things to happen time and again.

I thought the EU was meant to only control immigration from within Europe so why does it seem like they are able to bend the rules and force immigration laws from African and Middle Eastern countries? Seems like they simply want to cover up for Merkels craziness and of course we're again being tied down to the weak policies of the EU where we are dragged to the bottom to always match the worst offender (merkel accepting 1 million migrants then throwing them across EU) or the lowest economic performer (bailing out greece). The EU is a simple disaster waiting to happen.

 

[scorza]

Which school was this? I teach in Cheshire and teachers are terrible gossips and there hasn't even been a whisper of this incident. Considering how voiciferous the teaching unions are about injuries to teachers I am surprised they weren't shouting it from the rooftops.

I'm not a teacher and live in West Sussex and I heard about it

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/643326/Slovakian-children-English-bowOfsted-school

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/cops-called-brawl-school-between-7310787

http://www.breitbart.com/london/201...-after-migrant-kids-attack-uk-schoolchildren/

I'm sure that teaching unions normally are quite vociferous about injuries to teachers but at the same time there seems to be a lot of pressure to keep this incident quiet.

 

[413x]

Lots of people who want in have a vested interest due to working/living abroad etc
It's final everyone protects their own interests, but it's obvious

This lack of trade with the eu thing seems to be the main argument for the "in" side. I just don't buy it

 

[Freakbro]

I was especially drawn to the part about police protecting migrants. I work Cheshire way a couple of days a week and a few weeks ago there was an active police cover up into an incident at a school.

The Police and press reported: The rumours on Facebook are incorrect... That's they can confirm there was an incident between a pupil and a former pupil where a teach received superficial injuries.

The Facts: After several weeks of issues at the school 20+ Slovakian men stormed onto the school premises trying to attack select kids assaulting 4 teachers (2 of which needed hospital treatment) and made comments such as "you English will bow down to us".

I've seen a couple of pieces of shaky cam footage showing it plus a persons sister goes the school. Out of curiosity I called the 101 and asked why this was being lied about. The PC on the other end of the phone just stayed silent when I asked about why they were lying to the public, what about the students and teachers who had been attacked? Silence.

A lot of cultures coming here do refuse to integrate. This boards favorite group is one such example. Where only a small portion will integrate.

That is the thing I hate about the PC ******* system. Fact is fact. Right is right. The Rotherham abuse was attempted to be covered too along with multiple others.

Maybe just because you believe something to be fact, it doesn't make it so?

I'm not a teacher and live in West Sussex and I heard about it

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/643326/Slovakian-children-English-bowOfsted-school

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/cops-called-brawl-school-between-7310787

http://www.breitbart.com/london/201...-after-migrant-kids-attack-uk-schoolchildren/

I'm sure that teaching unions normally are quite vociferous about injuries to teachers but at the same time there seems to be a lot of pressure to keep this incident quiet.

But those FACTS that RaohnS posted, that he heard on FB, bear little resemblance to the newspaper links you have posted

So was it 20+ men storming the school to attack select kids and injure 4 teachers, hospitalising 2 or was it a fight between 6-12 schoolchildren where 1 teacher got mildy injured intervening

Like there's never been children fighting in school before we had immigration...

Oh and that Breitbart piece is just lol worthy.....

 

[Tunney]

It's called judgement - a useful life skill to learn. Does 2 million British expatriates becoming illegal immigrants overnight sound right to you or does the concept of 'acquired rights' as specified in the 1969 Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties sound more plausible?

I'm willing to take Dominic Grieve QC's advice on this matter over a bunch of armchair lawyers.

 

[Insanties_birth]

Maybe just because you believe something to be fact, it doesn't make it so?



But those FACTS that RaohnS posted, that he heard on FB, bear little resemblance to the newspaper links you have posted

So was it 20+ men storming the school to attack select kids and injure 4 teachers, hospitalising 2 or was it a fight between 6-12 schoolchildren where 1 teacher got mildy injured intervening

Like there's never been children fighting in school before we had immigration...

Oh and that Breitbart piece is just lol worthy.....

Regardless of small scale issues then what about the big issues like the criminality we've seen reported from migrants disappearing? Children being lost to gangs / child prostitution

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...d-says-chairman-country-s-Muslim-council.html

Then the violence and riots we've seen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKAQX74yRyc&feature=youtu.be

http://www.wnd.com/2016/01/swedish-cops-drowning-in-muslim-migrant-crime-wave/

The racism brewing up from from gangs trying to defend themselves (and in some cases genuine racism but lets be honest, this is what has fanned the flames and made them come out, this is what is causing the problems regardless of how much people want to ignore it).
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35508659

We've seen large scale crime going unresolved and covered up
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...y-revealed-taken-1-1-MILLION-people-2015.html

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/...ks-by-migrant-men-swedens-record-is-shameful/

You'll find many sources that show cover ups of crimes but if people refuse to acknowledge them despite our own happening in the UK with the rotherham and sheffield scandals (along with other places too) then they are simply willfully ignorant. Combine this with our government already saying they are planning on being soft on crime with rehabilatation and crowded prisons and it's going to be a recipe for disaster. Proven failure to tackle crimes in our own country, acknowledged failures to tackle crime in EU countries (our closest political resemblences) and we are probably already worse off with political correctness allowing sharia courts in our country are going to sew the seeds of failed integration and politically correct ignorance causing crimes to go ignored as we have already seen happen. We know what will happen, we've seen enough evidence and willful ignorance on some peoples parts will not close the eyes of everyone. Sadly it might lumber us in with the EU that makes it like watching a car crash (or several thousand) happen in slow motion while we're powerless to stop it.

 

[Freakbro]

Regardless of small scale issues then

No, this is not regardless of the innaccurate stories being bandied around as FACTS, you don't get to brush it off that easily.

No-one has said there aren't any issues with mass immigration, and unfortunately there are plenty of serious ones at that, but the overall picture is regularly being distorted and inflated exactly by all the crap being posted up or regurgitated by people with an agenda, which are innaccurate and misleading.

Like all things in the news, they hardly report on the majority of immigrants who don't cause any trouble, who do just get on with their lives, work and integrate (fiscally maybe not initially socially) into the system.

To be honest, I get so confused about who you guys are talking about half the time anyway as the terms get used so inter changeably - are we talking about EU Economic Migrants, Non-EU Economic migrants, illegal immigrants or Refugees/Asylum Seekers? As they are all different with different issues and responsibilities.

So, tell you what, you guys keep posting up all the horror stories and we'll keep pointing out when you're talking crap

 

[Insanties_birth]

No, this is not regardless of the innaccurate stories being bandied around as FACTS, you don't get to brush it off that easily.

No-one has said there aren't any issues with mass immigration, and unfortunately there are plenty of serious ones at that, but the overall picture is regularly being distorted and inflated exactly by all the crap being posted up or regurgitated by people with an agenda, which are innaccurate and misleading.

Like all things in the news, they hardly report on the majority of immigrants who don't cause any trouble, who do just get on with their lives, work and integrate (fiscally maybe not initially socially) into the system.

To be honest, I get so confused about who you guys are talking about half the time anyway as the terms get used so inter changeably - are we talking about EU Economic Migrants, Non-EU Economic migrants, illegal immigrants or Refugees/Asylum Seekers? As they are all different with different issues and responsibilities.

So, tell you what, you guys keep posting up all the horror stories and we'll keep pointing out when you're talking crap

I didn't post those articles myself so I can brush them off as easily as I choose, I simply gave your view credence and acknowledged you could be right so without proper evidence I was stating we can put that one to the side and not put too much weight behind it as we should rely on proven cases. If it frustrates you that we have clear evidence of large scale problems that some refuse to acknowledge just because you get riled up by the heresay of some posters trying to provide there own views then you really should just ignore the chitter chatter and rely on the ones like myself posting proper articles as evidence Your lack of belief though doesn't mean that others might not believe such things.

You say it is misleading and you say it is innacurate and based on an agenda yet when we (majority) are posting evidence from newspapers and reliable websites then how is that misleading? It sounds no more misleading when the doom and gloom brigade try and talk about the economic disasters that will befall us if we leave the EU without any real numbers or when they tell us all sorts of other crap like the 2 million brits will be forced back to the UK despite laws proving otherwise. The migration crisis' are an avid comparison to other countries which we are politically going to be very similar to if we are within the EU and mass migration has already proven to have large issues as you yourself have to acknowledge but seem to claim that somehow that is misleading people? I agree quite a few migrants don't commit crimes but where do the articles posted or within my own statements do I or the articles suggest that all immigrants commit crimes? I even took care to mention that it's not all a few times but just because not 100% are committing crimes that doesn't mean that it's somehow misinformation to acknowledge the current policies which we are known to be branded in delusional cover ups (as evidenced by the rotherham and sheffield rapes) are failures and that the crimes we show within evidenced news articles from various sources are not going to claim all migrants commit these crimes either. The quality of migration and integration is hampered when we don't tackle crime though, I've stated before that the real migrants suffer a lack of cohesion, racism and other issues thanks to the failed policies and lack of proper policing.

I agree though, feel free to debunk anything you feel you can provide evidence towards being incorrect and misinformation as it should be a fair and honest debate.

 

[scorza]

I'm willing to take Dominic Grieve QC's advice on this matter over a bunch of armchair lawyers.

Well fine, but my free advice to you would be to make sure you pay for that advice rather than receive advice that other people have paid for. Grieve is also a politician and not independent in this debate.