January Transfer Window

I'd like to see the stats. Don't remember them buying someone, then selling on as a profit.
Mido -
Paid £4.25m - SOLD - £6.25m = Profit £2m almost 50%

Calum Davenport -
Paid £1.2m - SOLD - £3m = Profit £1.8m 150%

Noe Pamarot -
Paid £1.7m - SOLD - £2m = Profit £0.3m 18%

Michael Carrick -
Paid £2.5m - SOLD - £18.6m = Profit £16.1m 640%

Tim Atouba -
Paid £0.6m - SOLD - £1.8m = Profit £1.2m 300%

Pedro Mendes -
Paid £2m - SOLD - £3m = Profit £1m 50%

... ;)

Spurs also have a lot of talented youngsters who could easily be sold on at big profits, Lennon, Huddlestone, etc
 
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Apparently all european clubs are looking at the THFC business model and we are in a very healthy financial position?
Why would they look at Spurs? Last financial information I remember (September) was that Arsenal is "Britains richest football club" - earning over twice as much turn over in a year as Spurs.

To quote... you are "blinded by arrogance".
 
Berbatov would be amazing in a Man Utd team. Watching sunday and most of his flicks and touches weren't picked up on by the other Spurs players. He deserves to play in a better team that Spurs, not that i'd want him to go of course, just hope Spurs can get better players for him to work with!


He was rubbish against united on Sunday.

Lennon and, Ill hold my hands up Jermain "not quite so gayness" were the standouts.

If you watch how united played him on, they forced him really far up the pitch and he didnt have the ability to do anything about it.
 
I'd be interested to see that, as you have no income from the Champions League, have spent highly on transfers (highest net in the Premier league this season), and gate recipts aren't going to be that high. Surely the club will shoulder huge debts when/if White Hart Lane is redeveloped.
I'll post it up but it's deep and obviously mostly about Spurs... hence me not posting it up in the first place. Good read though :)
Why would they look at Spurs? Last financial information I remember (September) was that Arsenal is "Britains richest football club" - earning over twice as much turn over in a year as Spurs.

To quote... you are "blinded by arrogance".


cut it out
 
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He was rubbish against united on Sunday.

Lennon and, Ill hold my hands up Jermain "not quite so gayness" were the standouts.

If you watch how united played him on, they forced him really far up the pitch and he didnt have the ability to do anything about it.

Rubbish. You watched a different game. Only one time when he was in possession did Man U get it off him. He linked up play superbly. There's no one who can keep the ball like he does, he's on a different level to most of the other spurs players though, unfortunately.

As for Lennon, if he could actually shoot he might be half decent but doesn't do enough for me. Still young though so can improve. Jenas has one great match and one poor one, needs consistency. there's other players who i'd rather have in there.
 
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Thought Man Utd posted better trading results than these, can't be bothered to check but pretty sure it was around £240m.

Also the £200m Ar5ena1 show for this year includes £23m for the stadium naming rights which is in place for the next 10 years.
 
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Why would they look at Spurs? Last financial information I remember (September) was that Arsenal is "Britains richest football club" - earning over twice as much turn over in a year as Spurs.

To quote... you are "blinded by arrogance".

Those financial reports you read in the paper are done on turnover/income from the year, not on the actual accounts on the club.

If they financed in the debts each club have then Arsenal would not be the top. IF it was done on worth then the top 2 would simply read: 1. QPR 2. Chelsea.

However, the money men behind the figures dont take into consideration the mass of debt Man United and Arsenal and now Liverpool have heaped upon their club by being bought out or in Arsenal's case building a new stadium.

Whereas Spurs dont have any debts.

Anyway, back to transfer new of sorts...Woodgate is in the squad for tomorrows trip to Everton, possibly making his debut alongside King.
 

Actually you are. Firstly if you've been paying attention of late you'd know that Utd have actually released their financial results which are superior to that of Arsenals. But more so because you've seemingly completely missed the point of Chongs post; he wasn't claiming that Spurs are turning over more cash or making more profit than Utd etc but presumably refering to how Spurs manage to compete in the transfer with the top 4 despite not being in the CL and without putting themselves in crazy debt.

If Chong gets time to post it, it'll be interesting to read because it is pretty remarkable how Spurs can afford to spend the amount they do without risking the clubs future.
 
Right it would take me ages to go through and try and pick bits out so I'm just going to copy some from another Spurs forum because it's a bit easier and another member has already pulled bits out :) so I'll just copy his. It goes much deeper than I'll be posting.

The reason I didn't post this up is because it's from a Spurs fan and I didn't think most people would bother or want to read it. Also it's not all fact, a lot of it is opinion but this guy obviously knows his stuff and gives a good insight... imho. Like I said though it's THFC heavy!!

I have been investing in shares of the Club since flotation and, like any other invsetor, I know exactly how the Club operates its business.

I know the wages to T/O ratio limits as well as the amortisation costs to T/O ratios (whereby it can be worked out how much can be spent on transfers if required).

The exact figures for Director salaries, player salary budgets can all be found within the Annual Report which is available for viewing, and downloading, at the official THFC site.
 
Aye - I never said we werent in debt - but I dont think any club (bar Chelsea) can build a brand new stadium and not go into the red. The most important thing is that the stadium means profits year on year will be higher and easily help to pay off the debt. The BBC article shows that we are the club with the highest turn over in the Uk - so debt or not, we will pay it off and have plenty of money for transfers. Chong Warrior was talking about finance model - not how much debt etc a club is in; maybe the BBC headline was a bit misleading.

Edit: I got a bit mixed up - thought some of another article was in the one I posted:
Arsenal's financial results for the yesr ending May 2007 just revealed an operating profit of £51.2m, and a cash balance of £73.9m. On top of this, Arsenal also will receive the benefits of the 724 flats at Highbury Square which is estimated to produce a net profit of somehere around £100m (91% of the units being sold).

It is quite right that Arsenal also have a debt of £260m, resulting in interest payments of £13m a year, but at the current rate of profitability, such a debt burden is insignificant. Theoretically it could be paid off in 5 years.

These results show that far from being restricted on the transfer market, Arsene Wenger could have in fact purchased Tevez, Torres, Nani and still have changed left over for Bent. But who would have been so stupid to buy Bent?

Twinblade: the rankinjgs you gave (QPR / Chelsea) - was that taking into the worth of the owners (i.e. Bernie / Flavio etc)? My reference was just about annual turn over etc. Also about woodgate - thought he was out for 2 weeks (already given the nick name Sick Note 2? After Anderton). In addition your link to eufotball.biz is older than my link - so my financial information is better (takes you past the end of the season etc).

BaZ87: How are Spurs competing with the top 4? I'd class competing as being in the CL ever other year or two? Yes its all very well they have not gambled with debt - but debt is fine as long as the club is making a fair bit more than its out goings; not so much of a risk, especially as the gunners debt is pretty much all from building a stadium (increased revenue from that is going to pay for itself in no time). I'm not sure on Evertons financial position, although a long time supporter at work reckons they are in the black - so on paper it looks as if they are doing better than Spurs with even a lower transfer budget? Also, if you mean competing with the big 4 in the transfer market, if any of the top teams had gone for woodgate he would have gone to them over Spurs. I think there was a rumour the gunners were after him, but turned out to be Aston Villa...
 
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now onto the nitty gritty, a discussion of our wages and salary cap

The continuing talk of a salary cap is a nonsense – there is no cap on individual salaries – it is controlled by a wage budget based on the whole footballing squads.

Levy can go to £51.5 million this year, without any sanction from Lewis, and as we currently stand at £43.8 million then that means we can afford to pay NEW players a total of £7.7 million (and that does not include players leaving) – that equates to an extra £148,000 per week on wages. That can be distributed any which way Levy wants and if it needs to pay out £70k pw on top class players then so be it.

If we really need to push the boat out then (with Lewis sanction) we can go to £56.65 million which gives us an extra £12.85 million on wages to play with or an extra £247,000 pw.

Just because we can spend that level of money does not mean that we will if Levy does not think they are worth the money – he busted the overall budget for Davids so all this talk about players not being able to come to us due to our not paying the necessary wages is nonsense.

The only time, since Tavistock Group has owned us, that we failed to match wages was when we went for Duff and Parker – we were already running at 57% of T/O on a much reduced T/O and Levy would have gone to 60% but both of those players were on ridiculous wages (as all Chelski players are) and so we passed.

I can assure everybody that EVERY Club in Europe (including Chelski) are trying to REDUCE wages and every Chairman is in agreement. The THFC business model is seen as the perfect model to adopt by most European Clubs.

If we do not get a player it will not be because we could not afford to pay the wages – we might not agree with their demands which is a totally different issue – that said I do not believe a word of what the Daily Mail says and if this Tiago guy is somebody that Ramos wants then Levy will get him.

There are so many postings on many threads which seem to make us out as cheapskates – we are second only to Chelski spending in the transfer market since Levy came in – 6th highest payers in the PL and trading at a profit – we have got the £20 million required for the new training centre already in the Accounts – we have record profits - oh and we gave £4 million to charity last year.

Do you think that we got that way by Levy giving in to mercenaries? Levy is the best negotiator I have ever known so have faith in the guy.

And for those who say that Levy is the highest paid man at THFC, you could not be more wrong if you tried to be – his exact wage is £18,269.23 per week.

And for those that think that Kemsley was robbing the Club when he was here – his last year salary was exactly £0 – some might say that he was overpaid at that but those are the facts.
Instead of asking who we can compete with on wages, I turn it around and ask who can compete with our wage levels.

The media would have you believe that we cannot afford to pay the top wages and that our top players are on low salaries. That is completely false but I will post the facts and figures for your perusal and let you know what is going on and then you decide who you want to believe.

As discussed previously there is no individual salary cap at THFC – I have seen reports that our top players are on £50k pw and even as low as £40k pw – that is also not true.

I am not prepared to post any figures or statements that are not in the public domain but I did post a link earlier that shows Robbie Keane was on £60k pw basic FOUR years ago.

I mention the basic wage as all staff can earn up to another 35% of their basic with bonuses – that would have put Robbie on £81k pw back in 2004.

I have posted how other Clubs will be faring financially in the future but what about the here and now? Who can match our wages?

The so called top 4 – United, Ar5ena1, Chelsea and Liverpool – all have bigger wage budgets than we do – Newcastle also pays more than us (even though it has a lower T/O) – so those 5 can match or beat our wages if need be BUT they have all been told to cut their wage bill – for the purpose of this exercise though we can safely say they can match or beat our wages.

There is a group of Clubs who have a T/O less than our wage budget so they obviously cannot match us or their wage budget will be more than they earn – those Clubs are (in no particular order):

1. Aston Villa

2. Bolton

3. Blackburn

4. Sunderland

5. Fulham

6. Portsmouth

7. Wigan

8. Derby

9. Birmingham

The remaining clubs have a T/O higher than our wage budget so it is a possibility that they could match us BUT as all Clubs want to get below 50% wage ratio (even 60% would be a help) then it is highly unlikely.

I will list the remaining Clubs and show the % ratio it would leave them if they matched our wages:

1. Reading (97%)

2. Middlesbrough (91%)

3. Everton (85%)

4. West Ham (76%)

5. Manchester City (70%)

Please remember that our ratio at the high wages we pay comes to 42% - we can go to 50% quite easily and if we did then only Manchester City and West Ham, out of the above 5 Clubs, would have a T/O higher than our wage budget.

Sunderland has a very good ratio (44%) considering its T/O but every other Club WITHOUT EXCEPTION is trying to get the wage bill down.

All the figures quoted are from Audited Accounts lodged at Companies House – I have all of these at hand if anybody wants them. I also have an Excel spreadsheet which shows all T/O, wages and ratios for all PL Clubs. If you want them then please let me have your e-mail address.

As I have mentioned before please be wary of what the media tells you – the facts speak volumes about the overall financial situation. We are far from being cheapskates and we will NOT lose any top player, that we want, over wage demands.
 
There is a great deal of debate concerning wages at PL Clubs and it is being asked if we can compete, or are willing to compete, with the rest of PL Clubs.

At the risk of stating the obvious, the Clubs are working on different levels viz a viz turnover.

We are currently 5th in the PL for T/O and that league is as follows:

1. Manchester United

2. Ar5ena1

3. Chelsea

4. Liverpool

5. THFC

All Clubs have to make a profit (or at least break even – yes even Chelsea) T/O is not everything as wages can only be paid after loan payments have been made.

All of the above Clubs are in debt (except THFC) and (with exception of Chelsea) have to pay interest and capital on their loans.

Ar5ena1 and United are able to service their debts without too much trauma due to the capacity of their grounds (as well as other revenue streams) and the Gooners get > £3 million for every home match.

United have horrendous debts due to the Glazers putting the Club into debt to pay for their purchase.

Out of those 2, Ar5ena1 are the stronger in the long term financially. The Gooners wage bill is twice that of ours BUT that includes signing on fees for their players (dispelling the myth that Wenger gets his players for nothing – the Club he gets them from get nothing but the players do – a la Campbell).

I posted the link yesterday which shows that United have been told to get their wages under 50% of T/O and that wage levels will not be broken for anybody.

Both United and Ar5ena1 are profitable i.e. they trade profitably.

Chelsea, without Roman, are bankrupt and are still making losses of tens of millions each year. I posted the link yesterday which showed that Roman has insisted that they break even by 2009/10 and that wages are reduced to a sustainable level. They will never break even under the current business model and would need a 60,000 seated capacity stadium (and fill it each match) to get anywhere near being profitable – they do not have the fan base to do that and IMO Roman will not build a new stadium.

Liverpool are heading for a disaster as the new finance deal puts the Club into debt (a la Glazer) and the Club now has interest payments alone of close to £20 million per annum. Their last accounts showed them at a wage ratio of 58% and they made a loss of over £5 million – they were already in debt before this week’s announcement and they have also been instructed to get their wage bill down to lower than 50% - they are in serious trouble if they do not get CL football next season.

In short, all of the top 4 Clubs are reducing their wages both in absolute terms as well as % ratio versus T/O.

What about THFC? The last 3 financial years has seen our wage bill go from £33.1 million to £40.6 million to our current bill at £43.8 million. Because of our increased revenue, and superb business management, our wage ratio has reduced from 57% to 42% - please note that our ratio has gone down even with our absolute figure going up.

What about the rest? Newcastle are the wild card as their fiscal policy is amateurish at best (Ashley only finding out the true level of debt after buying the Club shows just how bad it is up there) – their current wage bill is unsustainable and the last accounts show a +/- £12 million loss and wage ratio at 61%. IMO Ashley will throw money around but he is going to struggle financially as he will have to pay top dollar on transfers (as they always do) as well as unsustainable wages.

All the rest of the Clubs have a T/O of 60% or less than THFC – Everton have a wage bill of £36.9 million which equates to a ratio of 64% which are unsustainable and they lost over £10 million in their last accounts.

If Manchester City match our wages then they will be well over a ratio of 70% which will be unsustainable, likewise with West Ham.

Our wage bill is greater than a lot of club’s T/O so the likes of Pompey cannot compete regardless of what the media will tell you.

The Clubs are owned by shareholders and they demand profit – even Roman has said enough is enough so Clubs have to either dramatically increase T/O (as we do) or reduce the wage bill.

What also has to be remembered is that all Clubs are Limited Companies (some are PLC) and have to abide by UK Company Law. If they make a loss they have to have guarantees from the shareholders that the Club can survive and be self financing in the very near future.

The likes of Manchester City and West Ham have had money men come in but they all want profit – they have injected cash for players but that is only a short term measure. Their mid and long term strategy is to make a profit – West Ham need a new stadium for that.

What does it all mean for THFC? It means that we have nothing to worry about for the mid and long term – it is crucial that we get a bigger Stadium but we all know that is in the pipeline.

Please take all the talk about wages being offered, or our being turned down by players, with a HUGE pinch of salt. Football is first and foremost a huge business and if the figures do not add up then it is not logical and therefore all nonsense. You only have to check Companies House to get all the information on Clubs and how much they pay – we are the 6th best payers in the PL and the gap between us and the top 4 is closing and when we get the Stadium then we will be on par and still be hugely profitable.
We have done it before with Davids with no problems - every Club has its "star earners" - it is a fact of life just like any other business.

Each contract has a very good bonus system and the Club always rewards development, success and loyalty - Lennon is a prime example - he got hauled in after his first year and given a big pay rise without asking.

Levy is an extremely astute businessman but you hear people saying that he does not know what he is doing - there is ample money in the Accounts to pay more IF required. Does anybody really believe that he would screw it all up just to save a million or two? This year is the first time a Dividend was paid as all the profits have been re-invested - he does not make his money until the Club is sold and the higher up the league we get the more money he will get.
 
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I think this little bit is apt for this thread?
As far as transfer budgets are concerned there is no "transfer budget" as such as in "here is a £40 million kitty."

If 4 players are needed then 4 players will be bought - the way transfer fees are accounted for ensures that even now we can spend £33 million without selling players - players will be sold off though as there are a lot of players that wont make the grade we are looking for.

The Club Manager (now Head Coach) is asked what specific players he wants for the 1st Team Squad - that list is looked at by Levy, Alexander and Comolli. Alexander will look at all legal issues (3rd party ownership, work permits etc.) - Levy will look at the player's current contract details ( buy out clauses - length of contract - supplied by Comolli) - if it looks a goer then Comolli is dispatched to speak to the players agent and Club - ALL financial negotiations are finalised by Levy. If we are unable to get specific players wanted by Manager (now Head Coach) e.g. Damien Duff and Scott Parker then the findings of the scout network (over 100 scouts worldwide) are placed before the meeting.

Every position is covered by the scouts findings and ages range from teenagers to the Davids and Naybets of the world. IF the Manger (Head Coach) likes the look of one (there are ample DVD's, OPTA stats etc.) then he goes off to watch the player himself - if he likes him then he says yes - if he does not like him then it is a no.

At all times the Manager (Head Coach) has the veto on any player coming in or out.

Alexander has no input on the footballing ability of any player and nor does Levy - that is down to the Manager (Head Coach) - Comolli does have input on the footballers ability if he has seen him but it is only his opinion and he does not have any power of who is bought in to the 1st Team Squad (and I really cannot see him wanting it either).

Comolli does have full control of footballing issues for the Academy and Development Squad (e.g. Taarabt was his find for the Development Squad and when Jol saw him in training he wanted him right away).

A lot has been written abut the way we do transfers but it is no different than any other Club - Fergie gets his chief scout in (Comolli) and asks him who is good and who is not - Fergie then goes to watch - their lawyer checks out the legalities and then the Chairman says yes or no on the funds.

To clarify the reporting issues - Jol was Club Manager and reported directly to Levy - Ramos is Head Coach and reports directly to Comolli.

There is no conspiracy at the Club over transfers (or anything else to my knowledge) and the general consensus is that we have an excellent squad - Bent was brought in as it was expected that Defoe would leave in the summer - Kaboul was seen as an excellent acquisition and it was explained at the EGM that it was Jol that pushed for him after seeing him twice - KPB was highly sought after by a few top Clubs.

Whether the new players mentioned are good enough or even worth the money we paid for is subjective and open to criticism but that is how we got them.

Levy never criticises when a transfer goes wrong - Jol is on record on saying that and it is 100% true.

That is how it operates.
 
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