2008 Chinese GP - Race 17/18

ps3ud0 said:
But McLaren will still be miffed in not winning the CWC for probably at least a decade now - considering how reliable the car is and how fast its been.
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Ferrari could argue that they have the best car, hence should win the WCC. Similarly, they would argue that McLaren have the best driver, hence, they should win the WDC.

Also, the WDC is probably seen as the more important. However, the WCC is also very important.
 
NathanE said:
I think Heikki has had a difficult year. He admitted that himself the other day. And was perhaps the grumpiest I've seen him after the China qually when interviewed by ITV.

I hope he will improve next year.
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Well, he's going to have another difficult year, in 2009. As long as he is paired with a super fast driver (Alonso, Massa, Hamilton, etc), he will continue to look very ordinary.

We can hope and pray, or be realistic and accept that what we have seen this year, is what we should continue to expect from him in years to come.
 
sunama said:
Ferrari could argue that they have the best car, hence should win the WCC. Similarly, they would argue that McLaren have the best driver, hence, they should win the WDC.
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Ferrari might have the faster car, but McLaren arent far off and have easily have the most reliable engine. Speed is a given, but reliability makes/breaks championships...
sunama said:
Also, the WDC is probably seen as the more important. However, the WCC is also very important.
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Agreed the WDC is the one all the public/media are interested in, but no doubt the WCC is as important - from the overall team perspective is always has been...

WTF was I typing CWC?!?

ps3ud0 :cool:
 
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ps3ud0 said:
I have to disagree, Heikkis scored a good amount of points and yes his driving/race performances have been below average, but for the team hes been average.
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He's been in the best or second-best car all season (Hamilton has shown this) and he is languishing well behind the Ferrari drivers and Hamilton, in the WDC. Even Kubica is ahead of him in a car which is nowhere near as good as the McLaren. Over the course of the season, Renault has been a very poor car - its only come good in the last few races...Alonso isnt far off of Heikki in the WDC.

Remember, no one expects Heikki to compete against Hamilton. This just isnt going to happen. However, we do expect Heikki to mix it with the Ferraris and eventually finish 4th in the title race. I'm pretty sure that Barrichello would be able to do this.

I'm just saying that he doesnt deserve to be in a championship winning car...there are far more deserving drivers in F1. Hell, even Button (of whom I'm not a big fan), could probably do a better job.
 
NathanE said:
There is more money in it for them with LH winning. Hence that's why Ron Dennis has said that's all he really cares about now.

LH is worth a stupid amount of money in terms of sponsorship. More than what they'd get from winning the WCC versus coming 2nd.
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Add to that the fact that Ron wil lose over £1m quids worth of car to Hamilton when he wins. ;)

He agreed to give Hamilton the McLaren F1 LM in their factory when he won the championship. Now thats a nice bonus. :D
 
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A thought on why Ferrari didn't take Alonso... He has a very similar driving style to Hamilton. I.e. a fairly loose rear end to the car.

I think the current generation of Ferrari does not suit neither Alonso or Hamilton. It's quite a unique car on the grid in terms of design. The wheel base is bigger than any other car and it relies very much on aero and not so much on shedding rubber.

Maybe this is why? Maybe Ferrari intend to switch their car design back to the old skool in 2010?
 
Perhaps, but when Kimi joined in 2007 it took him about the first half of the season to get his head around the Ferrari (much more twitchier than he was used to)...

ps3ud0 :cool:
 
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Does anyone feel that this years championship is even more hollow than last years?
Or is it just because a Ferrari driver aint taking the WDC home :D ?
 
sunama said:
This was a single race. The last 2 races, Massa has been strong. In Brazil, I predict Massa will be the man to beat. I know that Hamilton said that McLaren will be stronger in Brazil than they were here, but I disagree. We shall just have to wait and see.
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Are you watching the same championship? Last race Massa was spooked by the sight of a red and silver car in his mirrors and then quickly outbraked himself before deciding to cut cross country and hit the side of Lewis' McLaren. Following a steller drive to 8th he then decided to ignore the STR exiting the pits and drive into its front wheel.

The race previous to that he had left the pits still with his refuelling rig attached, trundled round at the back of the field, crashed into a barrier and rejoined the track in such a way as to cause the Force India to take evasive action and hit the barrier.
 
NathanE said:
A thought on why Ferrari didn't take Alonso... He has a very similar driving style to Hamilton. I.e. a fairly loose rear end to the car.

I think the current generation of Ferrari does not suit neither Alonso or Hamilton. It's quite a unique car on the grid in terms of design. The wheel base is bigger than any other car and it relies very much on aero and not so much on shedding rubber.

Maybe this is why? Maybe Ferrari intend to switch their car design back to the old skool in 2010?
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I also wonder if Alonso and PDLR allegedly using the confidential Ferrari material in testing has something to do with it; IMHO he's shown himself to be potentially untrustworthy and a possible liability (like Lewis and Ron last year, he wasn't really a "team player").
 
Overlag said:
they was:confused:
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How do they know that when LH put it on pole and we never got to see his potential race pace? The hints coming from McLaren at the time were that they had not fuelled him lightly.

The performance of the car in China today tends to add weight to that as well.
 
Alibaba99 said:
Are you watching the same championship? Last race Massa was spooked by the sight of a red and silver car in his mirrors and then quickly outbraked himself before deciding to cut cross country and hit the side of Lewis' McLaren. Following a steller drive to 8th he then decided to ignore the STR exiting the pits and drive into its front wheel.
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Both Massa and Hamilton had problems. The difference was that Massa was able get into the points, while Hamilton wasnt. Massa and Hamilton's crash was a racing incident and I dont hold that against Massa - he is a racer and will try and intimidate and dominate other drivers. The problem with that incident was that Hamilton also has a dominant driving style, hence, it didnt work.

In similar style, he tried to dominate and scare Bourdais into submission, but he didnt yield. This led to the incident. However, throughout the race, Massa remained fast. Did he not put up the fastest lap of that race?

Alibaba99 said:
The race previous to that he had left the pits still with his refuelling rig attached, trundled round at the back of the field, crashed into a barrier and rejoined the track in such a way as to cause the Force India to take evasive action and hit the barrier.
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Before the pitlane incident was Massa was dominating at the front and able to move away from Hamilton, with ease. The pitlane incident which was not his fault (he was given the green light), ruined his race and threw him into the middle of the pack. It was made worse by the fact that he then had a penalty to serve, because he was released dangerously into the path of another car - again not his fault.

I think it is becoming fashionable for people to berate Massa. In truth, he is the only driver this year who has been able to stand toe-to-toe with Hamilton after Alonso, Hamilton's only real competition, was effectively neutered after his move to Renault.
 
NathanE said:
A thought on why Ferrari didn't take Alonso... He has a very similar driving style to Hamilton. I.e. a fairly loose rear end to the car.

I think the current generation of Ferrari does not suit neither Alonso or Hamilton.
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If we were talking about a lesser driver, such as Button, Heikki, Heidfeld, etc, then I might agree with you. However, Alonso has proved that he can drive any car and be quick in it.

2005 - wins world title with Renault.
2006 - wins world title with Renault.
2007 - moves to McLaren, in a car that is alien to him and finishes a single point from the title. Had he not been demoted in Hungary, he probably wouldve won the title. Important to note that without Alonso, the title winning team - Renault - are no longer competing for race wins or podiums. Its as if they are broken, in some way.
2008 - moves back to Renault and while initially the Renault is crap, as the season progresses, the car and Alonso develop to make the car, once again, a race winning car. Note that the team mate of Alonso, is performing poorly in comparison. Without Alonso, there would be no race wins for Renault.

The above shows that when Alonso leaves a team, it struggles. When he returns, as if by magic, the team begins to perform well again.

Ever since Alonso won the title in 2006, where he beat MS/Ferrari fair and square, I believed that he was the "daddy" of F1. Its possible that MS also believed this, which ultimately led him to retire. Based on his 2007 and 2008 performances, I believe he is still the "daddy" of F1 and that he will not have a problem adapting to a new team/car and winning, just as he did when he moved to McLaren and then back to Renault.
 
philjohn said:
I also wonder if Alonso and PDLR allegedly using the confidential Ferrari material in testing has something to do with it; IMHO he's shown himself to be potentially untrustworthy and a possible liability (like Lewis and Ron last year, he wasn't really a "team player").
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If Ferrari was a British team, I would agree with you, but the Italians are well-known for being "dodgy". Just look the corruption scandals that go on over there and you get an idea of what they are like.

They wont mind that Alonso (unfairly), in the past, has taken advantage of Ferrari data, to improve his own chances. What they like about him is that he has the will to win.

I'm pretty sure that if Ferrari could get their hands on McLaren data, they would definitely take a look at it. Ferrari are not squeaky clean.
 
sunama said:
If we were talking about a lesser driver, such as Button, Heikki, Heidfeld, etc, then I might agree with you. However, Alonso has proved that he can drive any car and be quick in it.

2005 - wins world title with Renault.
2006 - wins world title with Renault.
2007 - moves to McLaren, in a car that is alien to him and finishes a single point from the title. Had he not been demoted in Hungary, he probably wouldve won the title. Important to note that without Alonso, the title winning team - Renault - are no longer competing for race wins or podiums. Its as if they are broken, in some way.
2008 - moves back to Renault and while initially the Renault is crap, as the season progresses, the car and Alonso develop to make the car, once again, a race winning car. Note that the team mate of Alonso, is performing poorly in comparison. Without Alonso, there would be no race wins for Renault.

The above shows that when Alonso leaves a team, it struggles. When he returns, as if by magic, the team begins to perform well again.

Ever since Alonso won the title in 2006, where he beat MS/Ferrari fair and square, I believed that he was the "daddy" of F1. Its possible that MS also believed this, which ultimately led him to retire. Based on his 2007 and 2008 performances, I believe he is still the "daddy" of F1 and that he will not have a problem adapting to a new team/car and winning, just as he did when he moved to McLaren and then back to Renault.
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I agree totally. Alonso is clearly a great car developer. Just the very fact he was actively involved in the spy scandal, i.e. discussing Ferrari details via e-mail, suggests to me he finds the car design and setup to be integral to winning races.

I think Renault will be very strong next year if he stays with them.

That said I doubt even Alonso could convince Ferrari to change their entire chassis design and wheel base mid season :p:D
 
sunama said:
Both Massa and Hamilton had problems. The difference was that Massa was able get into the points, while Hamilton wasnt. Massa and Hamilton's crash was a racing incident and I dont hold that against Massa - he is a racer and will try and intimidate and dominate other drivers. The problem with that incident was that Hamilton also has a dominant driving style, hence, it didnt work.

.
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Well of course Massa got into the points - how much time did LH lose just by having to wait for the whole train of cars to pass him after Massa had booted him off - it was certainly a lot more than the 25 or so seconds of Massa's penalty for doing that

That is what is so ridiculous about that penalty, even though Massa was penalised it was STILL worth him doing it, the penalty has to be more than what you can benefit, in this case it clearly wasnt

(remember LH obviously thought that it wasnt worth getting any new tyres for the 1st corner incident, as he had already gone past the pits at least once before being booted off by Massa - this incident was on lap 2 or 3 - but HAD to come in once the incident had happened), not only that but look how much time Fisi cost people today being overtaken in the slowest car on the grid, multiply that by the twelve or so cars/positions LH lost due to Massa alone and getting points from that point on was nigh on impossible
 
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