new dog

What dog do you have? Even normal sized pigs heads, beef ribs, and things like that should be big enough. Basically as long as it's big enough for the dog to have to CHEW, shear, rip, tear and gnaw at it rather than just licking around a bowl, it's beneficial and certainly better than kibble and canned junk "food". Get creative :D
 
~J~ that's geat mate, but honestly? Dump everything in that extensive list bar large bony pieces of dead animal and its derivatives. Dogs have zero use for (can't digest, make themselves ill trying to digest etc) everything else in that list. Veggies, honey, fruit, kibble... bad! :) Raw meaty bones for the winrar. \o/

I 'almost' agree with what you're saying. This is why I said it was a 'kinda' BARF diet.

I was told by the others to feed Stella generally what she'd get in the wild, and of course if a dog couldn't get an animal, it would go for vegetables. Whether this is nadgers or not I don't know, but, I guess it makes sense; hence the vegetables.

The bones I did try to be honest, but Stella is a Bull Terrier so tends to throw her food down her throat rather than chew/crunch so had a few moments of me having to remove them as the daft sod thinks she can eat them whole :rolleyes:

The honey is a treat, she loves the stuff!! lol :p
 
I also certainly agree with the dietry comments in this thread. Packaged food sucks hard. We used to buy lamb / chicken / turkey mince for our boxers and cook it at the same time as we had dinner. They loved it and gave them loads of energy and just generally healthy. Bone treats were also given occasionally :)

FWIW, exercising a pup, keep it short and simple. Stretching a puppy will cause more damage in later life. Don't let them run too much or walk to far.
 
Fair enough on honey as a treat mate, it's no real harm in small doses. :) Dogs just don't handle sugar well, and honey is basically liquid sugar that's all. Just take it easy. The veggies and fruits thing is nonsense, honestly. Wolves and wild dogs will never eat them unless starving or sick (eg eating rough grass to purge their stomachs). Wild dogs and wolves also do NOT eat the stomach contents of herbivorous prey if they can help it (I can supply references and links to the world's leading wild wolf authority to back this up if required).

Dogs' digestive system is not geared to eat, process or digest vegetable matter, grain or fruit. From the teeth to the layout of the intestines/bowel and the lack of certain enzymes from the pancreas. Dogs just can't handle it.

All they need for a 100% "complete and balanced diet" (to steal the pet junk food companies' mantra) is whole animals and parts thereof. I kept bull terriers of a certain kind for years, and they were fine with raw. Feed bigger stuff that MUST be chewed and torn up. Not only do they get an awesome dental, gingival and muscle workout but they can't bolt or 'hoover' their food either :)

Try meaty beef ribs, and whole racks of meaty lamb rib cages with the necks attached (entire). These things are literally given away by butchers and slaughter houses by the skip-full. So are pigs' heads, trotters, all kinds of brilliant things. You can bulk up the diet with whole rabbits and suchlike if you know a local friendly hunter or pest controller, not to mention whole chicken and turkey frames from mail order, or nearby poultry wholesalers/factories. Ask around! :D
 
Um hello! You could have warned people that there were going to be pics of a dead rabbit! I have a pet rabbit and it wasnt nice to see.
:mad:
 
Um hello! You could have warned people that there were going to be pics of a dead rabbit! I have a pet rabbit and it wasnt nice to see.
:mad:

Um, sorry. People eat rabbit too you know? Would you be offended by a pic of a chicken or pheasant? I know people who keep those as pets, too. But in this case, it's food. Nothing more nothing less. Anyway, sorry you felt offended/upset.
 
Um, sorry. People eat rabbit too you know? Would you be offended by a pic of a chicken or pheasant? I know people who keep those as pets, too. But in this case, it's food. Nothing more nothing less. Anyway, sorry you felt offended/upset.

A piece of chicken on a plate (raw or not) no I wouldnt be, but if it was a dead chicken with all its feathers on still then yes I would. I appreciate its food and what you feed your pet is totally up to you, but maybe you could have put the links (with a warning) instead.
It was just a bit of a shock thats all, I had a rabbit exactly that colour, I know people eat rabbit yes, but its just not a very nice picture in my opinion.
 
A piece of chicken on a plate (raw or not) no I wouldnt be, but if it was a dead chicken with all its feathers on still then yes I would. I appreciate its food and what you feed your pet is totally up to you, but maybe you could have put the links (with a warning) instead.
It was just a bit of a shock thats all, I had a rabbit exactly that colour, I know people eat rabbit yes, but its just not a very nice picture in my opinion.

Fair enough, as I said I'm sorry you were offended/upset. It's just food though, so I didn't think twice. RTM the post if you're that upset, and ask a Don what the score is (not a sarcastic suggestion, I'm serious). :)
 
KaHn, that's great buddy but I'd not cut it up like that. Feed it WHOLE! It's not just the content of food but the consistency that's VITALLY important for health. I can explain (in depth) about how lack of extended ripping, chewing, tearing and gnawing away at a whole piece of carcass leads to periodontal disease, heart and liver disease etc... But since you're already willing to feed raw, I daresay just telling you that "Bigger is better, honest" will be enough for you to give it a go. :)

I do normally mate but with Max still being small his jaw isn't as strong as it needs to be, but he is getting there.

KaHn
 
hypocrite, if you do not like where your food come from then don't eat it.

KaHn

I dont eat rabbit, nor would I ever thankyou very much.
Anyway, myself and Rainmaker have sorted things out so theres no point carrying on this arguement.
 
~J~ that's geat mate, but honestly? Dump everything in that extensive list bar large bony pieces of dead animal and its derivatives. Dogs have zero use for (can't digest, make themselves ill trying to digest etc) everything else in that list. Veggies, honey, fruit, kibble... bad! :) Raw meaty bones for the winrar. \o/

From a GSD specific forum i post on, the girl in questions is someone i trust on RAW feeding.

Liver said:
A very good friend of mine sent me this and I thought I would share it with you all.

Newborn puppies, dying form the failing puppy syndrome", have a tablespoonful of chopped liver added to their mother's diet. Overnight, the pups snap out of it and start gaining again. Orphan puppies, stunted because of their formula is inadequate, have a little liver puree added to that formula and those same puppies suddenly begin to grow and gain weight. A young, adult male, starting his second year at stud is listless, uninterested under weight. A teaspoonful of raw liver daily returns the stud to his original luster and enthusiasm. A dog struck by an automobile fails to respond, even though surgery as successfully corrected it's injuries. About a week after the operation a tablespoonful of liver is prescribed three times weekly. By the end of the third week all of the dogs lost weight has been regained and the healing of the external wounds appears complete. All of the dogs described above had one thing in common- liver was added to their diet. Perhaps liver should be called a "miracle" food, rather than a mystery food. But, whatever you call it, the recoveries described were the result of LIVER , and whatever it is that enables liver to produce such "MIRACLES" remains a "mystery". For years veterinary nutritionists have referred to the unidentified liver fractions" and their seemingly miraculous effects. What ever it is in Liver, known or unknown, few canine nutritionists deny that liver does something special, when it comes to a dogs diet. If there is one single food that every dog should have in it's diet that food would have to be LIVER. As a matter of reference, and for those who enjoy probing a little deeper into the mysteries of dog feeding, a comprehensive analytical breakdown of the nutrients found in beef & pork liver. While there may be some fraction in liver as yet unidentified, one thing about liver is no mystery. It contains more nutrients in one package than any other natural food available to man or beast.

THE NUTRIANT CONTENT OF BEEF & PORK LIVERS.

Nutriant........ beef.......... pork...........comments

water%......69.7.......72.3....... similar to commercial foods

protein%......19.7.........19.7.....having a BV better than meat.

fat%.......3.2........4.8

carbohydrate%........6.0.........1.7

crude fiber%........0..........0

total ash%........1.4........1.5

calcium (mg)*........7.......10

phosphorus (mg)*.........358.........362

Iron (mg)......6.6......18.0

sodium (mg)*.......110.........77

potassium (mg)*.......380........350

copper (mcg)*.......2450.......2450....about 5X more than other sources

cobalt

vitamin A(IU)*......43,900.......14,200

vitaminD(IU)*.......34........44....same as milk, more than plants, lessthanfishliver oils

vitamin E

vitamin K.......115......230

vitamin B1 (mg)*.......0.26.......0.40

vitamin B2(mg)*......3.33........2.98

niacin(mg)*.......13.7.........16.7

folic acid (mcg)*.......294.........221.....10x more than most foods

pantothenic acid (mcg)*.......5660-8180........5880-7300........5x more than most natural sources

biotin (mcg)*.....100......100.......10x more than most natural sources

vitamin b6(mcg)*........600-710......290-590....about equal to most n/s

choline (mg)*........480-700......470-620.......5x more than most n/s

vitamin C(MG)*......31......23

*in 100g of liver.

Honey said:
Supplement: HONEY

.

Porpose: Contains Iron, Copper, Manganese, Silica, Chlorine, Calcium, Potassium, Sodium phosphorus, Aluminum and Magnesium. Can be used externally for treatment of skin disorders, especially effective with burns. Internally, for sinus problems, coughing, sorethroats, digestive upsets, and most importantly, bringing a dog in shock around.

Dark honey is more effective than light honey.

Credited with: Honey as the ability to kill bacteria. You will notice that no matter how long you keep honey on the shelf, it doesn't change in consistency, and doesn't go bad. The agriculture college in Colorado tried several experiments with honey in which a bacteriologist tried to grow certain diseases in honey. The honey killed all of the micro-organisms.

Typhoid, A and B typhosus, bowel bacteria (the bad kind), Broncho-pneumonia bacteria, Peritonitis, Pleuritis and Suppurative abscesses bacteria all died, as did dysentery-producing bacteria. These tests were duplicated in Canada and Washington, D.C., producing the same results.

Honey is a must in dog rearing. It's best to keep honey in the refrigerator at all times. If anything untoward happens with your dog, for example, a fight and one of the dogs goes into shock, you can give about a tablespoonful to the dog in question around. About a tablespoon, will bring a 80lb dog round immediately and the colour comes back into the dogs gums.

In breeding, use it for females who slow down when whelping and the interval between puppies gets longer. It gives them a little pick-me-up and helps them go back into labor. It is wonderful for feeding orphaned pups. If dogs are sick for any length of time and have not eaten, a meal of honey and yogurt can do wonders to restore their appetites. It is especially important for those dogs that have weak digestive systems and are already being supplemented with enzymes.

Honey contains the enzymes Amylase and Invertase, which aid digestion.

Honey is not irritating to the lining of the digestive tract, it is easily and rapidly assimilated, it quickly furnishes the demand of energy, it helps recuperation from any stressful event, be it surgery or an athletic endeavor, it is handled well by the kidneys, it has a gentle laxative effect and it acts as a natural sedative to calm the body. Every dog home should contain HONEY.

Vit B complex said:
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Supplement: Vitamin B~complex. Water soluble.

Purpose: As co-enzymes, they promote biochemical reactions acting with enzymes to change carbohydrates into glucose, which provides energy. Necessary for fat and protein assimilation.

Credited with: Promoting growth, helping to fight motion sickness. Helps the body deal with stress. Promotes healing after surgery. B~complex vitamins are important to the proper functioning of the nervous system and help energize and relax the system if suffering from fatigue. The liver, skin,eyes, mucousal linings of the body, especially those around the mouth, are affected by the B vitamins. The whole gastrointestinal tract works better with correct levels of vitamin B in the system. Promotes proper bowel function. Used in cases of hyperactivity, many skin conditions, rashes, dermatitis, cracks around the mouth, as well as burning or sore tongue.

Comes as a complex containing all the B vitamins. Using a complex is more effective than using an isolated part of the B~complex as the action of each vitamin depends on the amount of the others in the body. In nature, the B vitamin comes together in the same food, and there is no case reported of a B Vitamin found by itself.

Many B~complex vitamins are destroyed by cooking and food processing.

Digestibility: Water soluble, flushes through the body in 4 to 8 hours. Must be replaced daily. No known cases of toxicity, but it would be inadvisable to overdose on one single part of the complex. Works in conjunction with other vitamins and is more effective when diet contains phosphorus. B~complex is made up of the following

B1 Thiamine.

B2 Riboflavin.

B3 Niacin.

B5 Pantothenic Acid.

B6 Pyridoxine.

B12 Cyanocobalamin.

B13 Orotic Acid.

B15 Pangamic Acid.

B17 Laetrile.

Biotin.

Choline.

Inositol.

PABA (Para Aminobenzoic Acid).

Deficiencies: Constipation, skin conditions, neuritis, hair loss and early greying, increased cholesterol levels, weakness of the back legs, loss of appetite, stool eating, poor immune system, attracting fleas and other parasites, stress, fatigue, anxiety, nervousness, edema, heart disease and poor reaction to vaccines.

If you feed Liver, heart, kidney and eggs as part of the diet. You are feeding all of the B~complex. :wink: Karen

carbs said:
DO DOGS NEED CARBOHYDRATES IN THEIR DIET.
"There is no known minimum dietary carbohydrate requirement for either the dog or the cat. Based on investigations in the dog and with other species it is likely that dogs and cats can be maintained without carbohydrates if the diet supplies enough fat or protein from which the metabolic requirement for glucose is derived."


How can this be? Let us discuss just how the dog and cat are able to fulfill their requirement for glucose through a diet of raw meat, bones, and organs.

Carbohydrates do provide quick and easy energy. However, it is not 'carbs' that maintain the health of the organs but glucose. Glucose can be obtained from protein through a process known as gluconeogenesis, where amino acids (not fatty acids; those use a different cycle) are "converted" to glucose. Fat can also be used for energy; fats are broken down into Acetyl CoA and are fed directly into the Citric Acid Cycle, bypassing the process of glycolysis (the first stage of carbohydrate metabolism). Thus, glucose and energy can be obtained from other sources. However, if carbs are present they will be converted to energy first before protein and fats because they are easier to use. This is the reason that carbs regulate how much starch and fat will be broken down and utilized. If there is a plethora of carbohydrates, fat will be stored instead of used. If there are not enough carbs to fulfill energy needs, then fat will be converted to Acetyl CoA and used. If no carbs are present, then fat and protein are used to fill energy needs.

Excess carbohydrates are stored in the liver and the muscles as glycogen AND in the body as fat. However, since carboydrates are not the only source of glycogen (which also comes from proteins and fats through a process known as glyconeogenesis), they are not absolutely necessary. Human athletes commonly perform 'carbo loading' techniques where they eat huge carby meals of things like pasta to rapidly replenish their glycogen stores in their muscles and liver before a competition. The carbohydrates, when in excess, are more rapidly converted and stored as glycogen compared to fat and protein. HOWEVER, once again, fat and protein can also be stored as glycogen, which makes carbohydrates unnecessary unless you want to perform 'carbo loading'. I believe it is Purina that has capitalized on this and now has "energy bars" of complex carbohydrates for the canine athlete to help them recover more quickly between events. But, carbohydrates do not rebuild spent muscle tissue, etc. Protein does that. Fat is also easily utilized for quick energy, too, and provides more energy per gram that carbohydrate does (9 kcals/gram of fat compared to 4 kcals/gram of carbohydrate).

It is not low carbohydrate intake that causes things like cardiac symptoms and angina; it is low blood glucose. If there is not enough glucose in the blood system, then you run into many problems including black outs, cardiac symptoms (like arrhythmia), and angina (chest pain). Of course, it is interesting that wolves can go without food for weeks and still survive well enough. How do they do that without eating carbs? Simple—they use up fat reserves and may even dip into their own muscle to get the necessary proteins and fats to provide glucose and energy for their bodies. So carbohydrates themselves are not actually necessary; glucose is necessary, and that can be obtained from sources other than carbohydrates.

What about the brain? The brain is preferentially given glucose above all other organs. Glucose in its ready form, at that. But does this mean carbohydrates are necessary? Since glucose can be had from protein and Acetyl CoA from fat, then no.

What about the claim of protein and fat—when converted to energy—weakening the immune system? This seems to be taken from human research where athletes in intensive training had suppressed immune systems which could be improved by consuming proper amounts of carbohydrate. Additionally, white blood cell production in humans seems linked to glucose production. More glucose present means the body is better able to mount an immune response—until there is "too much" glucose around and insulin spikes and starts suppressing all other pathways in the body except for those needed to force the glucose into cells (fat cells). High amounts of simple carbohydrates and sugars are known to suppress the immune system. If this is the case, though, one could wonder how a diet high in grain affects our pets—overstimulation of the immune system due to high concentrations of glucose from the grain? Perhaps this is why many pets suffer "allergies" while on grain!

One other comment I have here is that as long as the animal is receiving appropriate fat and protein, glucose production will not be an issue. And for carnivorous animals like dogs, I cannot help but wonder if their white blood cells are more sensitive to glucose than ours--meaning, less glucose is needed to "stimulate" canine white blood cell (WBC) production compared to human WBC production.

Using protein and fat for energy does not weaken the immune system unless there is not enough to go around, so to speak. If someone is starving, then using protein and fats for energy—while necessary—is a little 'cost-intensive' on the body. But it is not the lack of carbs that is hurting them; it is the simple lack of enough food. Similarly, a human athlete in intensive training may overwork their body to the point that using protein and fats for fuel becomes too cost-intensive to their body.

What about poor hair growth and constant shedding resulting from a lack of carbohydrates? Can these indicate a 'need' for carbs? Maybe, but more likely it indicates a need for better overall nutrition. I personally have NEVER heard of 'carbohydrate deficiency' in any animal. Why? Because there is NO SUCH THING as a "necessary carbohydrate," just necessary glucose. Our bodies, and our dogs' bodies, can do without carbohydrates (although I would say our dogs would fare better than humans, since we are omnivores who do well with fresh vegetables in our diet—except for some cultures that eat mostly meat!). Fats and proteins can be converted easily to Acetyl CoA and glucose, respectively. Poor hair growth and constant shedding are linked to an overall poor diet, poor consumption of essential fatty acids, biotin deficiencies, some vitamin and mineral deficiencies, AND a lack of good fats and proteins in the diet. PROTEIN, not carbohydrate, is the building block for hair and skin and all other parts of the body. Carbohydrates do nothing for building and maintaining the body structures except provide easy glucose to fuel the rebuilding process.

What about thyroid function? Thyroid function is dependent upon the correct amount of GLUCOSE produced by the dog's body, not by the correct amount of carbohydrates in the diet. Too much glucose from easily available carbohydrate energy sources can cause just as many problems as not enough glucose. Since we have already established that glucose can be produced from protein (or even skipped during fat metabolism, where Acetyl CoA is used instead), then it would again seem that carbohydrates are actually unnecessary provided that there is enough protein and fat to go around (and a raw diet has PLENTY!).

B compounds, or B vitamins, are found not only in the dog's own intestine (bacteria produce some B vitamins) but also in the meat and organs of prey animals. Feeding a variety of organ meats as part of a proper raw diet will cover the B-vitamin requirement quite easily. One has to wonder--how much of the B compounds in grain and starch and veggies is actually available to the dog? Compared to something more bioavailable like liver, then I would say 'not much.'

Grain said:
NO grains - Please!
We know that dogs are fashioned as carnivores with teeth designed to tear flesh, not grind food as the herbivore does. Dogs have simple stomachs and a short acidic intestinal tract that is ideal for digesting meat. The dog does not digest grains and vegetables as readily as it does meat and bone. Although dogs have somehow managed to adapt (to some extent) to carbohydrates in their diet, their body prefers a food high in animal protein.

Grain makes up a considerable portion of both commercial and a number of homemade feeding programs. The use of grains in dry processed pet foods became popular because it is a less expensive source for energy than fat or protein. Insufficient animal-derived protein in a dog's diet can cause deficiencies, which is manifested in diseases that may include skin and chronic ear infections, reproductive, heart, kidney, bladder, thyroid and adrenal gland malfunctions. It is fact that dogs do not have a dietary requirement for carbohydrates. There are requirements for essential' fatty acids and essential amino acids (protein), but there is no known necessity for carbohydrates. However, dogs do have a metabolic requirement for glucose, which can be produced within the body or through diet. Metabolic pathways in the liver and kidney can use other nutrients to produce glucose. Therefore, sources of dietary carbohydrate are not necessary if protein and fat intake are adequate to provide the needed precursors of glucose.

There are many issues surrounding the nutritional value of grains. Most refined grain products act more like simple sugars in the body, meaning they are broken down into blood sugar quickly after being eaten. In other words, they have high glycemic ratings. On the other hand, vegetables, with the exception of root vegetables, potatoes and most fruits, have low to moderate glycemic ratings. Foods that elevate blood sugar produce harmful molecules called free radicals, which accelerate aging. Excess glucose reacts with and damages proteins in the body, which also ages tissues. Research is indicating that diets based on low glycemic carbohydrates improve blood sugar metabolism. However, as useful as the glycemic index is for evaluating food's effects on blood sugar levels, it is sometimes overvalued. To get a true understanding of how healthful various carbohydrates are, you would also need to consider the amount of carbohydrates different foods supply. The carbohydrate density of a food is determined by the amount of digestible carbohydrates in the food less the grams of fiber. If you evaluate carbohydrates by both their glycemic index and carbohydrate density, refined grain products rate worse than almost any other food.

Are whole grains better than refined grains? At first glance whole grains may appear to contain more nutrients and blood regulating fiber. Due to their higher fiber content, they tend to rate lower on the glycemic index. The more grains are processed, the more they tend to raise blood sugar. Nonetheless, whole grains have their shortcomings, including high carbohydrate content, antinutrients that impair absorption of minerals such as calcium, iron and zinc and lectins that interfere with intestinal and immune function.

Refined grains are missing more than a dozen nutrients found in whole grains, so it's natural to assume that whole grains are higher in nutrients. Unfortunately this isn't the case. Grains do not contain vitamin C, an antioxidant that is important for immunity, protection against allergies, skin health and cancer. Grains do not contain vitamin A or vitamin A precursors such as beta-carotene that is important for the health of mucous membranes. Vitamin A reinforces immunity and helps to prevent both heart disease and cancer. Grains are poor sources of the B vitamins in comparison to the calories they provide. You would have to provide a lot of grain in a dog's diet to provide adequate amounts of vitamin B - yet these vitamins are readily available in meat sources. Antinutrients in grains, called pyridoxine glucosides, reduce vitamin B6, which is important for a healthy immune system and hormonal balance. Vitamin B12 is absent in grains, an important nutrient for nerve and brain health and protection against anemia. Grains contain low levels of bioavailable biotin, which is so necessary in the metabolism of fatty acids. As well, grains alter the metabolism of vitamin D which plays an important role in creating bone health and a strong immune system.

Grains contain low levels of calcium and they also possess other components that contribute to poor calcium metabolism. They are lower in protein and the essential amino acid lysine than animal proteins. Protein is vital for maintaining lean body mass, tissue repair and a strong immune system. Grains do not contain taurine or carnitine. Taurine is a conditionally essential amino acid and carnitine is a vitamin-like nutrient that is needed for energy metabolism. Grains are low in fat, but contain a very high ratio of omega 6 to 3 essential fatty acids. A poor omega 6 to omega 3 ratio promotes insulin resistance and has pro-inflammatory effects.

A high intake of phytate from grains can potentially lead to deficiencies of iron or calcium unless suitable supplementation is provided. Studies have found that retention of zinc in the body is inversely related to the level of phytate in the diet. The phytate in grains not only inhibits the absorption of zinc in the grains themselves but also the zinc available in foods that are eaten with them. Antinutrients such as phytates in grains are believed to have evolved as a defense mechanism so the grains could protect themselves from insects or animals. Besides phytates, other antinutrients in grains have been shown to promote inflammation and induce adverse effects on pancreas cells.

Most of the well-known lectins are derived from grains, legumes and tubers. For example, gluten is a lectin that has been associated with celiac disease. Lectins are glycoproteins that have the potential to interfere with the body's hormonal balance, metabolism and health. Lectins induce structural changes in the intestine that increase gut permeability and contribute to bacterial overgrowth. Once they cross the protective barrier of the gut wall and enter the bloodstream, lectins fool the immune system into reacting to proteins that would not normally be affected, resulting in autoimmune disorders and allergies.

Grains are a poor replacement for the rich fermented stomach ingesta that is part of the wild canid's diet. Grains stick to the villi of the duodenum, the finger-like projections of the intestine, which are vital for the absorption of nutrients into the bloodstream. If nutrients cannot be absorbed, problems arise. This may occur early in life or very late. Some dogs will experience severe problems by the time they are adolescents while the more resilient will not be affected until late in life. But at some point, grains in pet food will likely affect most dogs with their nutrient-blocking capabilities. There is a growing epidemic of chronic health problems in domestic pets that coincides with the feeding of commercial pet foods which contain difficult to digest grains rather than easily digested animal matter. Too high a percentage of grains in a dog's diet may cause nutritional deficiencies and may even create a host of immune-system related diseases.

KaHn
 
I dont eat rabbit, nor would I ever thankyou very much.
Anyway, myself and Rainmaker have sorted things out so theres no point carrying on this arguement.

You eat chicken yes? Beef? Lamb? Pork?

Where do you think your meat comes from? The meat fairy in the sky, I wasn't getting at the rabbit comment just your general attitude against seeing something classed as food dead.

KaHn
 
s-man where are you located in the UK? I use a company called www.daf-petfood.co.uk and they are great.

KaHn

Hi mate I'm in Scotland just outside Edinburgh...from looking at that site it looks like we can get stuff delivered so we'll give it a go I think. Cheers for the heads-up I appreciate it!

Just to re-iterate some of the points that have just been made. A big part of the dogs digestive systems 'readiness' for food and the consistency of subsequent stools (mmm) is down to the effort they should be putting in to get at the tasty morsels they want so bigger pieces or whole carcasses are ideal in that respect as the ripping and tearing are the triggers for the dogs digestive juices to get flowing in preparation for the arrival of food. Thats just another reason why the wolfing down of processed **** is not healthy for them.

As for the veggie/honey, whatever debate. We like to give ours a mixed diet i.e intersperse the raw meat/bones with the occasional veggie mix (processed to oblivion!) and also things like a whole egg (shell and all) and porridge once in a blue moon. He seems to enjoy it....

As has been said they don't need carbs so ours doesn't get much of that at all. Makes it all the stranger that so many of even the more respected or 'quality' dried foods are padded out with wheat and rice etc - things a dog would never naturally eat!
 
After reading this thread I've decided on the breed I want, I've read tons and I think I'm ready to seriously look into getting a dog. I've been looking mainly into a Rotty, I know the breed doesn't have the best image an most people think they're rotten and vicious but I just love them. I have a two year old son and he can be very playful with the dogs in my family so I'm looking for a breed that can cope with that. If anyone has any advice/suggestions for me please speak! :)
 
With a baby due in a few weeks I wouldn't think a dog would be ideal to be quite honest....

read all my post ! i will be getting another dog in Jan .

i grew up with dogs, and have had 2 jrt for the last 14 years and just don't feel whole without a canine companion
 
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