Midweek Football Thread

[manic111]

Can't believe you're suggesting Voronin isn't a champions league-winning forward!

Meh, I guess about as much as Baros

Ok, you have made very good points. Points I agree totally with, but if you talk about silverware won in the last 5 years (and not just this season, as you seem to have focuses on) there is match.

Firstly, I made the point earlier that Rafa hasn't won anything (I don't think?) since the 2006 FA Cup. That's nearly 3 years. I know that it's no longer than Wenger, but I've already made my case as to why Wenger is the exception rather than the rule. There has to come a time when no silverware means a change, and the last few years without silverware, coupled (more importantly) with the fact that the team is currrently going backwards, is what leads me to believe that it's time for a change.

Rafa's a good manager, and I have a lot of respect for his tactical nouse, but in my opinion it's time for a change.

EDIT: Anyway, I need to go to bed, been fun arguing with you

 

[djmc0]

reports coming in it all came from a couple of stewards spraying tear gas into the crowd before trouble flaired and a steward punchine a supporter in the face. who dared to ask why it was sprayed. doesnt justify thereaction but there was provokation this time

Well, if that is the case, it explains the situation a bit more. I mean, I find it hard to excuse violence at football. But sometimes it's hard to determine who started it, the away fans, or the home police

That was the reason why English football was banned from European football in the 70's

 

[icey_haj]

Unlucky there Liverpool.

 

[Yozz76]

EDIT: I'd be interested in knowing why you're so behind Rafa, Yozz? I'm all for supporting managers, but there has to come a time when enough is enough. If we finish the season 6th, having gone out of the CL early and without a cup to our name, will it be time for him to go then? If so, why not get rid of him now and give somebody the January transfer windows to start rebuilding. If not, then I would question the policy of running a football club on blind faith.

Because I understand that the real problem at the club is the parasite owners. The focus should be on getting shut of them and not Rafa. They are liars who care nothing for the club but only what the club can do for them.

Rafa isn't perfect but he does have a genuine passion for the club, it's history and the fans. He is the best we can hope for at this present time.

Be careful what you wish for.

 

[djmc0]

Meh, I guess about as much as Baros



Firstly, I made the point earlier that Rafa hasn't won anything (I don't think?) since the 2006 FA Cup. That's nearly 3 years. I know that it's no longer than Wenger, but I've already made my case as to why Wenger is the exception rather than the rule. There has to come a time when no silverware means a change, and the last few years without silverware, coupled (more importantly) with the fact that the team is currrently going backwards, is what leads me to believe that it's time for a change.

Rafa's a good manager, and I have a lot of respect for his tactical nouse, but in my opinion it's time for a change.

EDIT: Anyway, I need to go to bed, been fun arguing with you

Well, In a way this is why football is the most loved sport in the world (outside of North America, they have to be different )

 

[McMav]

Well, if that is the case, it explains the situation a bit more. I mean, I find it hard to excuse violence at football. But sometimes it's hard to determine who started it, the away fans, or the home police

That was the reason why English football was banned from European football in the 70's

more reports in from people there. policing a joke no organisation crushes fans with tickets refused entry women and old men batond as i sais does not justify throwimg chairs but it was usual eastern european provocation

 

[jakeke]

The difference between Arsenal and Liverpool is that Arsenal lose stylishly and Liverpool lose whilst playing boring football, it's not much and it doesn't generally count as anything to many, but personally all I look for is style, so it means a lot to me

 

[djmc0]

The difference between Arsenal and Liverpool is that Arsenal lose stylishly and Liverpool lose whilst playing boring football, it's not much and it doesn't generally count as anything to many, but personally all I look for is style, so it means a lot to me

While I agree with you. You might've opened a mighty big can of worms there mate.

 

[Stewy]

I love watching Gerrard -> Torres -> miss/score -> repeat. It's really stylish. Oh wait....

 

[Loki]

Because I understand that the real problem at the club is the parasite owners. The focus should be on getting shut of them and not Rafa. They are liars who care nothing for the club but only what the club can do for them.

Rafa isn't perfect but he does have a genuine passion for the club, it's history and the fans. He is the best we can hope for at this present time.

Be careful what you wish for.

As an outsider looking in, he does seem to have charmed the Liverpool fans to the point of obssession. Benitez must think it's Xmas every day to see some of the crap that is going on in the Anfield corridors of power, because one thing is sure it is covering up for a lot of his short comings.

Two trophies (won on penalties. A Champions League winning squad, largely inherited from Houllier) is not a fantastic return for his supposed midas touch and genius. Despite what Liverpool fans say about there being no money available he has had the money to strengthen but you can put a very very big question mark over his dealings in the transfer market and team selection.

Crouch - Failure
Daniel Agger - 3 years on and still not 1st choice centre back.
Craig Bellamy - Failure, Never Liverpool Class
Dirk Kuyt - Prolific Striker for Feyenord and Holland, yet Benitez sees him as a right Forward
Jermaine Pennant - Never ever was, is or will be Liverpool class
Ryan Babel - More inconsistent than Nani and thats saying something
Lucas Leiva - See Pennant & Bellamy
Andriy Voronin - See Pennant, Bellamy & Leiva
Andrea Dossena - See Above
Robbie Keane - Just lol, really lol
Xavi Alonso - Publicly whored out to fund Gareth Barry. Gareth ****** Barry, he's not fit for lacing Alonso's boots.
Glen Johnson - Anything from £11m to £18m dependent on what you read but surely an indulgence to far.
Alberto Aquialani - Ask anyone who watches Italian Football and they will tell you that in a very ordinary Roma Midfield, he was a player who could never hold down a position of his own due to injury or poor form.

So thats a **** load of money that Liverpool fans think they have never had. Surely with that money he could have bought better quality.

As you have said, be careful what you wish for. If the owners do go you could end up being left with Rafa and an even bigger transfer kitty to squander on sub standard players not fit for the Liverpool Jersey. Who would he have to blame then ?

 

[Tute]

Putting on my sensible hat for a moment (yes Baz, I do own one ) I agree mostly with what Loki just said.

Rafa's transfer policy seems as utterly bonkers as his rotation one - I was flabberghasted when he let Alonso go in the Summer. Now, with Gerrard possibly out for weeks, they're going to miss him more than ever. Benayoun played well tonight but sadly - whilst being a good player - is a class below Gerrard.

I think Liverpool were very unlucky tonight but lets face it, the game should have been put to bed well before half time. Chance after chance went wasted.

The part of Loki's post that I don't 100% agree with is Crouch, I think he was a lot better than people gave him credit for. There were games where he came off the bench and make a genuine difference. I certainly don't think he was a "super success" story but calling him a failure is a bit harsh.

 

[BaZ87]

As you have said, be careful what you wish for. If the owners do go you could end up being left with Rafa and an even bigger transfer kitty to squander on sub standard players not fit for the Liverpool Jersey. Who would he have to blame then ?

Im not defending our start to the season this season, it's simply not good enough but constant anti-Benitez stuff that you (and many many more people) come out with is beyond ott. We were a side massively in decline when he took over, struggling to even qualify for the Champions League, we've since won the CL, FA Cup and reached another CL final, and last season came very close to winning the league (iimn the most points a team has got and not won the title). The job he's done up until this season has been perfectly acceptable.

Some people say he's not had enough money, some say he's had too much but the simple fact of the matter is that he's put together a squad that's was able to (last season) and is expected to challenge for the league and cl and he's not done it with RA/City type £m's. He's made mistakes (and you're right about some being hidden by our **** owners. some of the players you mention in your list is a lot of nonsense though) but all managers have.

As I said right at the top, our start to this season simply isn't good enough no matter how many injuries, decisions etc have gone against us and Benitez must take responsibilty but lets wait to the end of the season before we judge him. We've been in and came out of situations similar to this in the past and I wouldn't bet against it again. Who knows, in 5-6 weeks time we could have qualified from our group and closed the gap on the top to ~3 points and things won't be so bad after all.

But as I said the other week and last season, if we either drop out of the top 4 or end up without a trophy and 10+ points off the top of the league then he deserves to lose his job.

edit: and Loki, I don't think you should be talking about obssessions

 

[drunkenmaster]

I love how people are so willing to say Bellamy was never Liverpool class, yet I look at all their wingers and strikers, and he's better than all but Torres, and he's been awesome this season, defensively incredibly hard working, making loads of great tackles against both Arsenal and Utd, he was probably man of the match against Utd, infact he just was. His goal's were superb, his workrate second to know, his pace is deadly, his finishing sound.

Not Liverpool class, what nonsense, if he was there now he'd be 3rd on the team sheet after Torres and Gerrard. Thats with him playing not in his favoured or best position.

I also still find it hilarious that fans can still complain about the owners. There isn't a group of rich guys beyond gazillionaires who will fund a brand new stadium at this time, get over yourselves.

If liverpool fans didn't act like the deserve a billionaire and unlimited spending I'd have more sympathy, same goes for Newcastle fans who complain about the guy who stopped them going bankrupt, relegation might be a hard bullet to bite, but relegation is better than shutting down permanently. I'd like to see any Newcastle fan come in, pay off the debt, sink a hundred or two hundred million into the club as his fortune dwindles away in the recession and take that much abuse from the fans.


I can't see how everyone see's Benitez as better than Houllier, weren't Liverpool a midtable club with no silverware, nothing in europe, no where near a title for years, decades. Houllier came in, won 2 league cups, an fa cup(or 2?) got you into Europe, won the Uefa cup, made you a semi permanent fixture in the champs league, it was his team that won the CHamps league final and his players with his style of football. He also managed a 2nd place finish in the league.

Where has Benitez dragged Liverpool up too, an fa cup a champs league(with mostly Houlliers team and a LOT of luck), a single 2nd place finish in the league, defensive football that can't win leagues, a possibly weaker squad than Houlliers.

I love how liverpool fans, many all over are comparing the two and saying how massively different Liverpool are compared to under Houllier, like he was running a midtable team and Benitez has moved them miles up the table and brought the first taste of european success to the club in decades..........

 

[Loki]

I love how people are so willing to say Bellamy was never Liverpool class, yet I look at all their wingers and strikers, and he's better than all but Torres, and he's been awesome this season, defensively incredibly hard working, making loads of great tackles against both Arsenal and Utd, he was probably man of the match against Utd, infact he just was. His goal's were superb, his workrate second to know, his pace is deadly, his finishing sound.

Not Liverpool class, what nonsense, if he was there now he'd be 3rd on the team sheet after Torres and Gerrard. Thats with him playing not in his favoured or best position.

.

I stand by my comments, at the time he was not Liverpool class. He was immature and inconsistent. His skill has never been in doubt but his attitude and application, (until recently) left a lot to be desired. Bear in mind that when Newcastle were going public on their desire to sign a certain Wayne Rooney, Bellamy couldn't wait to get his buck toothed mug on Sky Sports News saying that if Rooney comes then he most certainly was not willing to fight for his place and be on his merry little way.

As for being 3rd on the team sheet, then I think Messers, Kuyt, Mascherano, Reina and Carragher would have a lot to say about that.

@ BaZ, Obsession, what Obsession, it runs both ways my friend

 

[FrankJH]

I think Liverpool were very unlucky tonight but lets face it, the game should have been put to bed well before half time. Chance after chance went wasted.

There but by the grace of God go Utd also (in the CL and EPL) /

Its all down to games that Liverpool dont have any control over (whether its the Fiorentina / Lyon game in two weeks or Lyon's last game (which they should get three points from despite being away) - of course even if Liverpool do win both games ,,,,,at least the "easiest" of the two is first,

(with the kind of pressure on the players and Benitez - just from general club funding relying on CL knockout games - no game will be "easy")

 

[BaZ87]

I stand by my comments, at the time he was not Liverpool class. He was immature and inconsistent. His skill has never been in doubt but his attitude and application, (until recently) left a lot to be desired. Bear in mind that when Newcastle were going public on their desire to sign a certain Wayne Rooney, Bellamy couldn't wait to get his buck toothed mug on Sky Sports News saying that if Rooney comes then he most certainly was not willing to fight for his place and be on his merry little way.

As for being 3rd on the team sheet, then I think Messers, Kuyt, Mascherano, Reina and Carragher would have a lot to say about that.

Not agreeing with DM but with the exception of the golf club incident (and I guess that's a big exception), Bellamy's attitude was fine with us and Rafa was fairly happy with him (he was only sold as he was one of a few players we could get a decent fee for, to fund the deal for Torres). He didn't set the world alight (far from it in fact) but he gave us another option that would have been handy right now.

 

[Stewy]

Bellamy is scum though

 

[eggyoke]

As much as I believe we wont win anything with Benitez under the current ownership, I think getting rid of him now would be suicide for the club. I couldn't think of anything worse to happen right now.

I've got issues with Rafa, pretty much always have had since he built his team after the CL win. I think he's been very lucky during his time here and I believe some of Gerrard's previous miracle performances alone have covered a lot of his managerial flaws.

Dont get me wrong I think he's skilled in some areas of the game, especially in Europe, however he's just as flawed in other areas. Man management is a major one of his flaws, he's terrible at working with youngsters, using substitutions and at understanding players' confidence problems, which leads onto things like him being inept at getting the team motivated and so he leaves this for other coaches and the players themselves to muster up. Its almost like he doesn't understand that they're "human beings." He thinks of them all like robots and pieces on a chess board and refuses to see blatant holes in many of them even when its detrimental to results on the field because he's extremely stubborn and rather than lose face, he'll simply persist.

Another thing, he's also extremely poor in the transfer market. His success rate is dwarfed by mediocrity and only god knows what his definition of "quality" is. The amount of millions he's spent on players in our team that wouldn't make it into many mid-table teams is alarming. He says he hasn't been supported financially, and that may be, however you look at other, mid table managers and see what they get out of there teams with what little they have and its evidently clear that he isn't one of the "greats" that we all want him to be.

Its commendable seeing the Liverpool fans that still support him faithfully without any worry about his ability, and I just want to make clear that I want nothing more than for him to do well. I think it'd be terrible to have to start all over again, especially now that Gerrard and Carra are at the ages they are. Yet... can anyone see where he is going with our squad? His stubbornness completely messed up with Alonso, he messed around with Crouch, yet look what we're left with? Whats his aim? Is this his team? He came out recently and said, although I admit I cant remember it completely, something along the lines of "Its OK that we're not fighting for silverware" and I cant help but wonder how this is any different from Houllier or Evans?

However after saying all that, I think its clear for any fan with a brain that if he was to get sacked during mid season with the state of our financial situation, the idiocy of current owners, and amount of Spanish influence we'd lose at the club, I reckon we would end up in some serious dire straights.

 

[FrankJH]

Personally think Liverpool are in a lose /lose situation imo

They cant afford to sack him unless it comes from a personal fortune (which may be illegal anyway, but certainly very unlikely given the relationship between the owners), and are Real likely to pick him given his transfer history? Even if Benitez went to Real he would get some kind of payoff I would expect

If they keep him on, the squad mediocrity will continue. There are some real gems in the first team undoubtedly, but Gerrard isnt getting any younger (and maybe my imagination but he is seemingly getting injuries more frequently / seriously every season), Is Torres likely to stick around for 4 or 5 more years without massive improvement?

Three years of CL performances of getting worse (one of being in a similar position to right now which was escaped by the skin of the clubs teeth),

How long can Carragher carry on for - a 10/11 possibly 11/12 - have you got three able replacements (two to play together and a stand-in)?

The other thing is how many top players would be attracted by Liverpool right now (yes two / three seasons ago it was probably fever pitch with all those wanting to play in the UK - I cant believe it would be first choice now unless htey are boyhood fans or Spanish) and with proposed plans all EPL teams need 5 British players in the matchday squad by 2011 or so?

 

[Weebull]

Arsenal fans have never called for Arsene Wengers head as the Liverpool supporters have with Benitez.

Pretty sure there were a few murmurings during our poor run of form last season, actually.