ATI cuts 6950 allocation

[kylew]

This is the 3rd time I've had this discussion with DM and kylew, same story prior to 4 and 5 series releases, both times they trotted out the market share grab, silly low value for money prices and both times the prices were very different to what they were claiming so I find it odd they bring it up yet again.

What? Are you having this much difficulty understanding the simple concept of "it's not the profit on a card by card basis that they rely on?" as well as the concept of volume sales? I didn't mention anything about "silly low value for money prices" or "marketshare grab", this is rich coming from you though Rroffle, considering how often you get called out for the wild claims you make.

You're acting like the 5 series were massively more expensive than the 4 series in terms of RRP. I've lost count of the amount of times that I've reminded you that the differences between the 4 series and 5 series' prices were majorly down to the exchange rate, not AMD thinking they'll earn more placing their cards at a much higher price point. I don't expect you to actually acknowledge what I've just said though, you'll probably gloss over it with some waffle loosely related to the subject.

 

[kylew]

Rroff - you can't deny that ATI/AMD have gained a hell of a lot of market share since their 3 series though

Be sure that he'll at least try play it down in to none existence.

 

[Rroff]

Not saying they haven't.

Its just that about this time before the launch of a new ATI/AMD top end model we get the same people making claims about how they are going to try and grab market share with unrealistically low prices trading on making a profit by volume... etc. and its really not the way it works.

Heres the 5 series thread

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18049620

can't find the 4 series one off hand might have gone into archive.

 

[kylew]

Not saying they haven't.

Its just that about this time before the launch of a new ATI/AMD top end model we get the same people making claims about how they are going to try and grab market share with unrealistically low prices trading on making a profit by volume... etc. and its really not the way it works.

Of course they make profit by volume. People weren't saying grab market share by "unrealistically low prices", people were saying they don't see why AMD would realistically increase the prices over the 4 series so drastically, because of the ignorance of a lot of people who can't think out side of "this much performance has to cost this much money".

As I said though, you glossed over what I said and had a small waffle about something loosely related to the subject. You can claim that they massively increased the prices, and deny it was down to the exchange rate, but it doesn't make it true just because you're saying it.

 

[Journey]

unrealistically low prices trading on making a profit by volume... etc. and its really not the way it works.

So hold on, you're telling me that having a higher volume product with lower profits doesn't work?

You should probably go and tell the whole manufacturing industry this since it will be news to them.

Out value/Out Perform/Out Market. That is how you swing customers to your brand, and bring volume to your products and therefore profit to your company and shareholders.

 

[seena]

i Think guru3d previewed 4870x2 just 1 week before its release date

I wish some site would these cards!!!

 

[Rroff]

No I'm saying its not the way ATI/AMD operate... I said this previously and was bang on the money both times. You can't use that model as the main basis of working out their prices.

 

[555BUK]

I have been doodling at work and arrived at the following formula for calculating 6900 performance.


Estimated 6950 Specs (averaged from many sources)
Core Speed 775MHz
Shader Count 1536
Memory type: GDDR5/256bit (1GB and 2GB versions)
Memory Speed 1250MHz

Estimated 6970 Specs (averaged from many sources)
Core Speed 875MHz
Shader Count 1920
Memory type: GDDR5/256bit (2GB only)
Memory Speed 1400-1500MHz

All results are relative to stock 5870 performance.

5870
core 850x1600= 1360000 = 100%
mem 1200x256= 307200 = 100%


Performance Estimate #1
Assuming drivers and shader cores provide similar ~40% gains to 6800 series.

6950
core 775x1536x1.4= 1666560 = +23%
mem 1250x256= 320000 = +4%
overall (weighed 66% GPU / 33%mem) +17%
6970
core 875x1920x1.4= 235200 = +73%
mem 1450x256= 371200 = +21%
overall (weighed 66% GPU / 33%mem) +56%

Performance Estimate #2
Assuming drivers and shader cores provide 10% additional gains over 6800 series.

6950
core 775x1536x1.54= 1833216= +35%
mem 1250x256= 320000 = +4%
overall (weighed 66% GPU / 33%mem) +25%
6970
core 875x1920x1.54= 2587200= +90%
mem 1450x256= 371200 = +21%
overall (weighed 66% GPU / 33%mem) +68%

So, using the very simplistic calculations above the 6950 will sit somewhere between 23-35% faster than a 5870 and the 6970 will be 56-68% faster.

Example #1 would make the 6970 about equal to GTX580 performance, whilst #2 would make it 10% faster. ATI may of course use higher clock speeds, or perhaps even have made greater advancements with shader optimisations. I personally think performance will sit somewhere within the above two scenarios.

I look forward to being humilated when actual reviews arrive.

 

[Martini1991]

I'm with Rroff on this.
I don't know who, but AMD fans blasted on the 5870 being 200 quid. It wasn't... Far from it.

 

[kylew]

I'm with Rroff on this.
I don't know who, but AMD fans blasted on the 5870 being 200 quid. It wasn't... Far from it.

It was more to do with the US price rather than the UK price, AMD don't set the UK price, we pay what they set in US Dollars at the current USD to GBP conversation rate. Had the exchange rate been at the same level as when the 4 series came out, the 5 series would have been around the same price. That's the point I, and others were making.

They kept the USD prices very close to the USD prices of the 4 series. AMD won't concern themselves with the price of the cards in GBP because we're such a small market compared to North America.

 

[555BUK]

Gross margins are very important. Selling 500,000 units at $200 profit is generally preferable to selling 1,000,000 units at $100 profit, even thouugh overall profit remains equal. Higher margins provide much greater resiliance to market changes, currency fluctuations etc.. High margins provide bettwr "shareholder value" than pure profit/revenue.

 

[Rroff]

swedish site says 1440shaders for 6950.

If thats right it would mean a 1536 card isn't possible. I don't see them putting out a 1440 6950 and a 1920 6970 tho.

 

[seena]

 

[BS Dave]

what worries me about this thread, i must admit is that a lot of the excitment has been generated by a few comments Raven has made (who's usually pro green)

Just imagine if he's just wound up all the ati fanboys (i say that in a non-insulting way as i'd count myself as one of them - i just like ati cards from past experience) and is now watching what has ensued...

frothing at the mouth etc

 

[bru]

one thing to remember, they could set the price at anything up about £500 and they would still sell every one they could make for the first two months or so

 

[BS Dave]

lol at mansell and hamilton and what's with the panda?

 

[Rroff]

It was more to do with the US price rather than the UK price, AMD don't set the UK price, we pay what they set in US Dollars at the current USD to GBP conversation rate. Had the exchange rate been at the same level as when the 4 series came out, the 5 series would have been around the same price. That's the point I, and others were making.

They kept the USD prices very close to the USD prices of the 4 series. AMD won't concern themselves with the price of the cards in GBP because we're such a small market compared to North America.

Even the USD prices didn't fall within that economic model tho...

 

[kylew]

Even the USD prices didn't fall within that economic model tho...

Even though they didn't change much from the 4 series pricing, which is what people were basing it all on in the first place?

 

[Rroff]

snip...

Which tells use pretty much nothing we didn't already know.

 

[Mr Krugga]

one thing to remember, they could set the price at anything up about £500 and they would still sell every one they could make for the first two months or so

Are you for real?

If thats right it would mean a 1536 card isn't possible. I don't see them putting out a 1440 6950 and a 1920 6970 tho.

HD6950 - 1440 shaders? HD6970 - 1600 shaders then. Sounds like 5800 refresh

snip

Not a bad analysis although for all we know, 6900 isn't the same architecture as either 5800 or 6800 and the shader efficiency is supposed to be increased quite significantly (be it 10% or 50%, it still makes a difference).

what worries me about this thread, i must admit is that a lot of the excitment has been generated by a few comments Raven has made (who's usually pro green)

Just imagine if he's just wound up all the ati fanboys (i say that in a non-insulting way as i'd count myself as one of them - i just like ati cards from past experience) and is now watching what has ensued...

frothing at the mouth etc

That would only prove he's trolling (again...) and get him suspended me thinks

Let's hope he's not that stupid.

Gross margins are very important. Selling 500,000 units at $200 profit is generally preferable to selling 1,000,000 units at $100 profit, even thouugh overall profit remains equal. Higher margins provide much greater resiliance to market changes, currency fluctuations etc.. High margins provide bettwr "shareholder value" than pure profit/revenue.

I for one have no idea what gross margins Nvidia or AMD operate within. I don't think you posses such knowledge either? Both AMD and Nvidia had had different contracts with TSMC for 5700/5800 production and cost of the gpus is their main variable cost afaik.