Have students actually got anything to complain about?

You're not taking account of probable wage rises there are you? It seems fairly unlikely that most will earn the average wage over the whole course of the repayment period and therefore repay roughly that amount (adjusted for inflation though it may be). However the calculations allowing for potential or probable wage rises would rely on some seriously hefty assumptions to reach a final salary figure and the path/amount of time taken at each increase.

The only reason I'm asking is not because I expect you to actually try to calculate it but because presenting figures in this way can make it appear less or more onerous depending on what assumptions you take.

I have calculated average wage rises in another thread (quoted below) with excel spreadsheets taking into account a 4% or 2.5% annual salary increase above inflation as two sets of averages. I assumed a 4% RPI inflation rate (which is the current one as being the average maximum long term offset with the tapered interest rate for the loan of 0-3%, I averaged it to be 5% taking into account the BofE target of 2% for RPI) and that the annual average increase included job progression and promotion, and given that the average salary in 2010 is £26k and the average salary in 1980 was £5.7k the extrapolation is well within conservative projections even for the higher average increased throughout a career. (£103k would have buying power of £40k-£50k today)

The above example was only to illustrate what someone ONLY ever earning the average wage adjusted for inflation would repay (again adjusted for inflation so that the figure is given in current buying power values)


Ok we have a result for you. (I hope you appreciate the effort);)

You are correct to assume the debt increases in year one and indeed for a number of years if we assume an increase of 5%/annum and repayments of 9%/annum on £22k.

In the first year he will pay a total of £90/annum toward the loan of £27k but accrue £1350 in interest.

However if this stays static then he will only repay £2700 in total at the end of the 30 year period and the rest is wiped off, so his actual contribution is £2700, or less than one years tuition at current levels.

Now let's we take it one stage further and extrapolate this in real terms across the 30 year working lifetime of a graduate.

We need to make some assumptions so given that RPI is likely to be near it's peak (given the BoE target of 2%) we can safely assume that 5% is a reasonable figure for an annual increase over the lifetime of the loan regardless of the income. If we also assume that the Graduate will over the 30 years increase his salary via normal annual rises and promotions in real terms by 4%/annum on average (4% plus RPI).

The principle loan amount grows until it reaches it peak of £32,842 in year 9, the Graduate is earning £38,943 in year 9 and repaying £1,913/annum in contributions for that year. From year 10 until year 19 the principle amount decreases until in year 20 the graduate is in surplus, hence it is reasonable to extrapolate that the average graduate, given average increases in salary against average increases in RPI will repay his loan in 20 years having paid a total of £57,986. A full 5 years quicker than the NUS graduate tax proposal and with paying a lower annual fee and total fee overall.

excelcapture.jpg



Alternatively if we assume a more conservative view of the graduate's earning potential and allocate a 2.5%/annum (+4%RPI) rise the picture changes so that the total debt is repaid in year 24, still before the NUS graduate tax system and with paying less/annum and overall. Most importantly the amount repaid whilst he is a low earner is pretty insignificant and not a liability to his monthly income.

ECEL23YR.jpg



Of course in all likelihood his progression will be quicker at the early end of his career which will shorten the time it takes to repay the loan and thus the total amounts significantly, but from the examples I think you will agree that it is not as onerous as the NUS proposals and for the lower earners it is infinitely better than what we currently have or what the NUS propose in regards to the actual real amount of contributions expected.
 
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you don't think they have a point at all? not even with Scotland and Wales getting off scot free (pardon the pun) as it were. I've no objection to paying for education (in the long run), but the double standards must sting a little. Bear in mind here i'm talking about student protest in general, not the rioting.

B@

I do think our education system needs substantial reform (as evidenced by our plummeting in the world rankings over the last 15 years or so), and I would much prefer university education to be free, but I also firmly believe that universities should be the place for those who are both brightest and hardest working, not the place you go when you finish your A levels...

Most of those protesting wouldn't get a look in at a traditional student intake.

The Devolved issue is not that much of an issue to me from the student perspective, they have the choice about how they spend their money. The fact that they get more money per head than England is an issue, but that's not a student related problem.

We also need to consider why we are sending so many people to university to study vocational subjects such as nursing, social work, etc etc when there is no need for their education to be based in this way, and indeed standards have generally dropped since the change...
 
I went through 3 years of college/uni and had to work my arse off every weekend ( 11 hours for both days) and holidays (11 hour days also) to get through it so, IMHO, the current and future crop of students have now't to moan about.

Did you have time to revise for exams or anything? That sounds pretty impossible what was the job you did for 11 hours a day?
 
Did you have time to revise for exams or anything? That sounds pretty impossible what was the job you did for 11 hours a day?

I worked on a farm every Sat/Sun and almost every day during holidays which is not exactly easy work (7am start till 6pm finish). Revising took place, normally, weeknights or when I could.


As for the "why England have to pay and Scotland Wales don't" - If someone is touting that as a reasonable argument, given that S&W use their budgets how they please as can England, then they are silly.
 
I have calculated average wage rises in another thread (quoted below) with excel spreadsheets taking into account a 4% or 2.5% annual salary increase above inflation as two sets of averages. I assumed a 4% RPI inflation rate (which is the current one as being the average maximum long term offset with the tapered interest rate for the loan of 0-3%, I averaged it to be 5% taking into account the BofE target of 2% for RPI) and that the annual average increase included job progression and promotion, and given that the average salary in 2010 is £26k and the average salary in 1980 was £5.7k the extrapolation is well within conservative projections even for the higher average increased throughout a career. (£103k would have buying power of £40k-£50k today)

The above example was only to illustrate what someone ONLY ever earning the average wage adjusted for inflation would repay (again adjusted for inflation so that the figure is given in current buying power values)

Fair enough then, you did actually calculate it to a much greater degree than I was asking for. It was just to see what assumptions were being made in the calculations. :)
 
As for the "why England have to pay and Scotland Wales don't" - If someone is touting that as a reasonable argument, given that S&W use their budgets how they please as can England, then they are silly.

I believe we also get smaller students loans compared to the English.
 
Not necessarily, not every low paid occupation that either requires or can use a degree in a relevant subject is highly paid. Those people include social workers, science researchers, and so on. It depends on whether you only measure worth and success in fiscal terms alone, you do not sound that shallow to me.

Indeed, I do not think that you should measure worth and success in that way. Infact I've been quite vocal supporting the opposite viewpoint :)

My comment was more in reference to those who have been stating that people shouldn't be going to university if they aren't looking for financial success and these characters should be paying a lot for it - which doesn't really fit in with the incoming regime.

There have been quite a few comments that reflect this amongst the few student debt threads at the moment, but they have not been made by the posters who are frequenting them such as yourself.

But if we look at the proposals and take a graduate who for whatever reason uses that degree in an occupation that pay the average wage throughout his/her career. The average wage is currently £25948 (ONS stats for Sept 2010), if we assume an inflation increase across the board for the term of the repayment/30years, that graduate would repay £13230 (at current buying power) for their tuition fees over that 30 years (when the remainder is written off).

This is not going to impact their annual or monthly income to any degree so I fail to see what all the fuss is really about.
I conceed that is a lot less than what I anticipated and the proposals are not as burdensome as I imagined for that wage bracket. However I'm still not convinced, partly I imagine because I'll be entering a wage bracket and took a route to my career that would feel the full wrath of the new proposals for a prolonged period.

My current debts, providing I did not have any financial assistance from family or from a scholarship, would be as follows:

Undergraduate tuition fees: £3000
1st postgraduate course tuition fees: £13,000
2nd Postgraduate course tuition fees: £10,200
Essentials over 6 years including food + bills (~£9000) and accomodation: ~£25,500(!!!)

Which would bring me to a total of £51,700.

With the new proposals it would be, if Acid's fees for UoB are correct (3 years - £20,100), £68,800. :eek: These figures are only for necessities and would not provide for any lifestyle whatsoever.

Proportionately it's not a huge increase, but it's still quite a jump. I also have to concede that I would not have continued my education without a scholarship so a large chunk of the postgraduate costs are 'imaginary'. For someone who hasn't started full time employment yet will do, that is a frightening amount of debt, and accomadation certainly couldn't have been covered by a student loan.

I guess ultimately I just sympathise for those who will get hit the hardest - those entering a relatively high end wage bracket and those who took a meandering approach to their career (which I think is fairly common) who will probably have accumulated additional debt, to which the proposals are additonally burdensome.

Nice attempt at putting words in my mouth.

The sympathy was more around the fact that we all are feeling the pinch, and as such i felt a certain amount of empathy.

No, when I first heard about them "OMG £9k a year, blah blah, blah..." I was like, that's not very fair, but then I actually look at the situation we're in and said "ohh look, the country is a big crap sandwhich at the minute

I see. I didn't really get that vibe from you when I read your posts, but since I clearly misunderstood your stance I apologise :)
 
Fair enough then, you did actually calculate it to a much greater degree than I was asking for. It was just to see what assumptions were being made in the calculations. :)

No worries. Assumptions have to be made otherwise the calculations will be too complex to be of any use in a forum.

The ones I used seem to be a reasonable conservative estimate of averages over time.:)

We could apply the calculations to specific examples, but the variables would be enormous and time consuming and again we would have to rely on future assumptions and estimation.
 
They have nothing more to complain about than the rest of us. The selfishness of the students is what gets me.

Voting for Lib Dems on the principle they would get free Uni? What thick people believe that? And how would that possibly be fair in the current circumstances?

Majority of the protesters seemed ignorant, stupid and lost.
 
Why is "free uni" all over this thread? Nothing is free, under current system most people repay their loans within 18-30 years.

Under new system some won't be paying anything at all, many will be paying peanuts and some will have to pay a lot more than others. Not mentioning other parts of the UK that are apparently not part of the country when it comes to higher education policies.

Most of the graduates will pay income tax which partially goes to fund higher education as well.
 
I think it's a shame that other age-groups aren't supporting the students, who were essentially duped into voting for something they didn't want. Perhaps labour can promise to double all pensions in the next elections, and when they win they can outright cancel pensions all-together.
 
I think it's a shame that other age-groups aren't supporting the students, who were essentially duped into voting for something they didn't want. Perhaps labour can promise to double all pensions in the next elections, and when they win they can outright cancel pensions all-together.

If you had not noticed the Liberal Democrats didn't win the election.
 
I know but that's not the point I was making.

Then what is the point then, you said they were duped into voting for something they did not want, well there was a big push for the Liberal Democrats and that is the only thing I can see you mean by "being duped"

They were not duped as the Lib Dems didn't win the election and thus cannot deliver on their election pledges.

As for support, it is difficult to support a transitory group who will in all likelihood not support successive generations of Students either. Also if they as a group took the time to look at the proposals they will realise (and some do) that they are actually better than the current ones for a significant proportion of future students and significantly better than the alternatives offered by the NUS and Labour.
 
They are still part of the coalition though, and if those pledges dont mean anything since they didn't come first then how are those pledges worth anything in the first place? Are they just bargaining chips?
As for support, it is difficult to support a transitory group who will in all likelihood not support successive generations of Students either.
Fair enough, I mean that attitude wont benefit anyone but I guess it would be naive to expect anything more. To answer the main topic, I don't think students have it "that bad". On the contrary I think this might benefit the education system and the economy as well as employment. What I disagree with is students taking the fall for the lib dems' screw-up and kids getting hurt by overzealous police.

These students expect some accountability for the libdems' claims but instead they're the ones being vilified by the press and threatened with "the full force of the law". If I was a student I'd feel betrayed from every side. And I don't believe that every one of those "violent protesters" joined the protest with the intention to vandalize. They're just kids; more than likely they were coerced or influenced by a small number of violent elements.

The students are lacking in guidance and support, and dismissed as childish and stupid. Of course they're going to appear that way! How much experience in life and politics do they have? None. Does that make their opinions any less valid? Not for me, and I'm sure the lib dems where glad to have their votes too. From my perpective the kids are the victims in all this. That's all I'm trying to say.
 
They are still part of the coalition though, and if those pledges dont mean anything since they didn't come first then how are those pledges worth anything in the first place? Are they just bargaining chips?
Fair enough, I mean that attitude wont benefit anyone but I guess it would be naive to expect anything more. To answer the main topic, I don't think students have it "that bad". On the contrary I think this might benefit the education system and the economy as well as employment. What I disagree with is students taking the fall for the lib dems' screw-up and kids getting hurt by overzealous police.

These students expect some accountability for the libdems' claims but instead they're the ones being vilified by the press and threatened with "the full force of the law". If I was a student I'd feel betrayed from every side. And I don't believe that every one of those "violent protesters" joined the protest with the intention to vandalize. They're just kids; more than likely they were coerced or influenced by a small number of violent elements.

The students are lacking in guidance and support, and dismissed as childish and stupid. Of course they're going to appear that way! How much experience in life and politics do they have? None. Does that make their opinions any less valid? Not for me, and I'm sure the lib dems where glad to have their votes too. From my perpective the kids are the victims in all this. That's all I'm trying to say.

What should the lib dems have done, voted against the system that the IFS have calculated is more progressive and less burdensome than both the system that's already in place, and the system recommended by Labour's review, thereby leaving many students in a worse actual (as opposed to imagined) position than they could have done?

Would that really have been fulfilling their obligations to students?

Do you think Labour (who introduced fees, and top up fees, breaking election pledges both times) would have made the Browne review proposals better as the coalition did?

Do you think the Tories, without the Lib Dem influence, would have produced such a progressive policy?

These are serious questions...
 
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