Went to Porsche today - Got lucky, superb experience.

[beermonster]

the lighter car will be better.

Better at what?

 

[Gibbo]

I'm making the point that if you take two cars, both having the "ultimate setup" [god that sounds like something off one of the Jap CAr shows - ultimate setup!] for that weight or whatever then if one of them is lighter (provided it has enough downforce for its needs) it will be better.

I am not saying all lighter cars are better, I am saying that ALL ELSE being equal (and by equal I do not mean exactly the same setup, I mean the same level of setup) the lighter car will be better.

Yeah but that rarely happens in the real world, the best case was the M3 CSL, it destroyed the regular M3 and it was something 110-140kg lighter, but at the same time they made other improvements to the car as well which all added to a great package.

Another prime example is a Lotus Elise they are mega light, but don't necessarily corner any faster than say the much heavier M3 CSL or other heavier cars.

Weight is just one of the many factors that contribute to a cars handling, look at an old Ford Capri's, very light, but shockingly poor in corners until you re-vamp the suspension. Making a car corner/handle consist of many many things, weight it just one of them. A car been light in weight in helps but by getting everything right a heavy car can also handle superbly and the GTR is a prime example of this.

 

[Spie]

It seems a few of you think the forum rules don't apply to you.

 

[rypt]

I am not saying it is the be-all and end-all, but I am a believer in Chapman's words of "add lightness"

What I see now in cars is having to engineer around the problem of having more weight (much like Porsche spent years engineering round the problem of having the engine in the wrong place) - and I just do not like that as the extra weight if there as a result of government regulations with regards to safety.
Should let the consumer decide how safe of a car they want, I'd rather drive around in a "luxury kit car" that is a death trap


Yes you can make a heavy car handle like it is on rails ...

EDIT: Anyway, I'm done off-topicing your thread

 

[MOOGLEYS]

Here's some pics of my old 997 T.

Stunning looking car...

 

[Spie]

rypt I agree with you. Light weight is important. Most heavy cars would struggle round mountain hairpins. However it is less important as corner speed increases.

 

[beermonster]

Given the performance of any of these cars unless the weight has an effect on the feel of how it drives I wouldn't add it in to the equation of the actual purchase decision.

 

[Maccy]

I would def be picking the 911 Turbo, even without having driven it. Spie's old one looks fantastic, definitely my favourite colour/wheel combo too.

 

[rypt]

rypt I agree with you. Light weight is important. However it is less important as corner speed increases. Most heavy cars would struggle round mountain hairpins.

Very true, if anything the weight starts to add some stability at high speed cornering due to the larger inertias ... but you can sort that out for a ligher car via suspension turning (perhaps going to MR dampers to give you more control) or via clever things such as mass dampers

But for real world driving you aren't doing 150mph corners (well you might be if you can afford the tickets )

 

[Gibbo]

rypt I agree with you. Light weight is important. Most heavy cars would struggle round mountain hairpins. However it is less important as corner speed increases.

Thats what I liked about the Cayman steering it around little islands or very tight corners it just seemed hooked up. The 911 did not feel quite as tight in comparison and lighter on the front-end.

How a GTR would compare unknown, its been a while since I drove one but I do remember it seeming to defy the laws of physics as it just seemed fast at everything.

 

[[TW]Fox]

What a fantastic list of cars to choose from. You are at the stage where every car on the shortlist is a 5 star, grade A performance car. None of them are anything less than excellent. Which is the best car for you cannot be decided or even argued based on figures and paper alone, it purely comes down to how you feel behind the wheel.

I can't relate to your position I'm afraid so it would be fundamentally pointless for me to say 'omg get the M3', instead I'll just say I envy you and I bet it'll be a hell of a lot of fun finding out which car wins.

 

[Gibbo]

What a fantastic list of cars to choose from. You are at the stage where every car on the shortlist is a 5 star, grade A performance car. None of them are anything less than excellent. Which is the best car for you cannot be decided or even argued based on figures and paper alone, it purely comes down to how you feel behind the wheel.

I can't relate to your position I'm afraid so it would be fundamentally pointless for me to say 'omg get the M3', instead I'll just say I envy you and I bet it'll be a hell of a lot of fun finding out which car wins.

Your literally spot on here Fox, I want them all because they all are 5 star cars like you say and because of that trying to pick one is going to be very difficult as they are all amazing cars.

 

[Spie]

Fox is right, which is why you cannot make a decision purely based on a test drive. Emotion plays a big part. The trick is feeling it as strongly 12 months down the line. That's where I think the 911 will score.

 

[[ui]ICEMAN]

Right now I feel I'd actually take any of the Porsches over the M3, but next weekend I may have a different oppinion. I just can't see the M3 been anywhere near as sharp as the Cayman S but lets wait and see.

Having owned a Cayman S, 997.1 C2S, 997.2 C4S and a now an M3 I have feelings about all of the above.

Make no mistake, the Cayman is an incredible handling car but its weight is not why it feels nimble, it's purely the configuration of the car compared with the 911. If you drive a GT2RS or GT3RS you'll understand completely what I'm talking about, they still feel significantly different (although a lot better than the regular C2) than the Cayman does. Your salesman was right, you just need to trust that the 911 can do its thing, the 4WD "woolies" up the handling and makes it feel less likely to push on the front but in fact the opposite is true when you're really on it, there is a reason the GT cars run RWD not 4. If you're really unhappy with the lightness of the front end you can adjust the suspension too. I just fear that if you've been given the choice, knowing you as I do that if you go the Cayman route you'll be wishing you'd bought the 911. There is a reason the 911 costs more than the Cayman and holds higher status within the brand.

If you're looking point to point, cross country, the 997TT and the GTR will be hard to beat, again you've just got to believe that the TT will sort it all out for you and it does. It's more "exciting" than the GTR in the sense that it lets you get a bit wild but it really is perfectly stable and would be a good matchup against the GTR.

I don't know how it'll be in the UK but over here I took a massive loss on my Cayman, it didn't hold its vaue well at all but if you're not buying new, it's probably not such a huge issue. The 911's hold their value significantly better but then we are due a new one at the end of the year which is part of the reason I stayed away for the moment and will re-evaluate at the end of a couple of years of the 991.

For what it's worth, as you know I just bought my M3 and chopped in my 997. Its been a week now and the dust has settled; I can honestly hand on heart say I made an excellent decision. The e92 M3 is an excellent car and I see why the press raves about them. I wanted to dislike it, I really did and that's exactly how I went into my test drive but the proof is sitting in my garage that clearly it wasn't what I expected. I love the noise, the engine feels hugely strong, it's a lovely place to be and I had chance to put it up against an R8, 997.1 C2S, 997.2 C4S and a Z06 today. The only one it lost to was the Z06 and was pretty much neck and neck with the C4S.2 (I'm sure a 2S would have had it). Basically I don't regret my choice; the M3 will never be a 911 but then its not pretending to be either, it's a fantastic car in its own right and will definitely put a smile on your face like any of the cars in your lineup.

My decision was influenced away from the GTR due to our very high running costs over here, else that would have been a serious contender but you're faced with an interesting choice. Personally while the 997TT is a great car, it is getting on a bit now and with the new car looming, I'd be waiting to see if the .2 PDK ones drop sufficiently before snatching one up since the difference is night and day. I owned my 911 for almost 3 years and thoroughly enjoyed it but as they say, "variety is the spice of life" .

 

[Fr0dders]

was browsing 997 Turbos and came across this

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2473596.htm

Eeewww ! people who spec their 130k 911s like that should be shot on point of order.

on another note, does anybody know if the 997.2 Turbo Wheels (non centrelock) will fit a 997.1 Turbo ? Like so ...

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2532332.htm

The 997.1 Turbo wheels are so played out on porsches these days. Every cayman and 911 seems to have them

 

[Westyfield2]

Can smell the jealousy in this thread!

One of Dad's mates has got himself a new Cayman S and I absolutely love the thing . On track it held it's own a lot better than I was expecting too .

 

[MissChief]

there is a reason the GT cars run RWD not 4.

Yes, it's against the rules.


Anyway, jealous much? Wish I was in your shoes Gibbo, but they might chafe a little if they're not size 11.

 

[[ui]ICEMAN]

was browsing 997 Turbos and came across this

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2473596.htm

Eeewww ! people who spec their 130k 911s like that should be shot on point of order.

on another note, does anybody know if the 997.2 Turbo Wheels (non centrelock) will fit a 997.1 Turbo ? Like so ...

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2532332.htm

The 997.1 Turbo wheels are so played out on porsches these days. Every cayman and 911 seems to have them

The Turbo II wheels will fit fine on a .1 TT. same offsets

 

[Fr0dders]

997.1 TT with Aerokit and 997.2 Turbo Wheels.

i'm moist just thinking about it

 

[Gibbo]

Having owned a Cayman S, 997.1 C2S, 997.2 C4S and a now an M3 I have feelings about all of the above.

Make no mistake, the Cayman is an incredible handling car but its weight is not why it feels nimble, it's purely the configuration of the car compared with the 911. If you drive a GT2RS or GT3RS you'll understand completely what I'm talking about, they still feel significantly different (although a lot better than the regular C2) than the Cayman does. Your salesman was right, you just need to trust that the 911 can do its thing, the 4WD "woolies" up the handling and makes it feel less likely to push on the front but in fact the opposite is true when you're really on it, there is a reason the GT cars run RWD not 4. If you're really unhappy with the lightness of the front end you can adjust the suspension too. I just fear that if you've been given the choice, knowing you as I do that if you go the Cayman route you'll be wishing you'd bought the 911. There is a reason the 911 costs more than the Cayman and holds higher status within the brand.

If you're looking point to point, cross country, the 997TT and the GTR will be hard to beat, again you've just got to believe that the TT will sort it all out for you and it does. It's more "exciting" than the GTR in the sense that it lets you get a bit wild but it really is perfectly stable and would be a good matchup against the GTR.

I don't know how it'll be in the UK but over here I took a massive loss on my Cayman, it didn't hold its vaue well at all but if you're not buying new, it's probably not such a huge issue. The 911's hold their value significantly better but then we are due a new one at the end of the year which is part of the reason I stayed away for the moment and will re-evaluate at the end of a couple of years of the 991.

For what it's worth, as you know I just bought my M3 and chopped in my 997. Its been a week now and the dust has settled; I can honestly hand on heart say I made an excellent decision. The e92 M3 is an excellent car and I see why the press raves about them. I wanted to dislike it, I really did and that's exactly how I went into my test drive but the proof is sitting in my garage that clearly it wasn't what I expected. I love the noise, the engine feels hugely strong, it's a lovely place to be and I had chance to put it up against an R8, 997.1 C2S, 997.2 C4S and a Z06 today. The only one it lost to was the Z06 and was pretty much neck and neck with the C4S.2 (I'm sure a 2S would have had it). Basically I don't regret my choice; the M3 will never be a 911 but then its not pretending to be either, it's a fantastic car in its own right and will definitely put a smile on your face like any of the cars in your lineup.

My decision was influenced away from the GTR due to our very high running costs over here, else that would have been a serious contender but you're faced with an interesting choice. Personally while the 997TT is a great car, it is getting on a bit now and with the new car looming, I'd be waiting to see if the .2 PDK ones drop sufficiently before snatching one up since the difference is night and day. I owned my 911 for almost 3 years and thoroughly enjoyed it but as they say, "variety is the spice of life" .

Id suspect the M3 to be quicker than the R8 for sure and like you say think between the new 911's it will be very close as you found out only the Z06 really is the super-quick one in that bunch, afterall it is the lightest and most powerful.

Well I've given it some thought tonight and am gonna have another go in a 997 but gonna make it a 997.2 C2S with 385BHP and see how I find that before I make a decision.

Right now firm favourite is the Turbo, my thinking is if I buy one right, get a damn good deal I think they have hit pretty much the bottom of their depreciation as they simply can't get cheaper than the older 996 Turbos as X50's and S models are still fetching above 40k, so if I can bag a decent 997 with relatively low miles at the right price it should hold value well.

I think your right a newer Cayman will loose more money as would a newer 911, an older 911 though probably not be too bad.

The GTR is an unknown at moment, some say buy a low miles 09/59 car for 40k and it will still be worth 35k or so in 2yr wheras others say because the 2011 is much better and will be used examples in the near future it may impact the older cars more meaning maybe an 09 car in 2 years could be selling for 30k.

I shall drive another 911 and make it the 997.2 to just see how a newer 911 with more power feels. I shall also report back after Ive driven the M3 and Id be interested in knowing what the tuning options are on the M3 as well.