Riots in Tottenham, London! (NO RACIST COMMENTS)

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Ahleckz said:
Yes, it needs money but likewise it also needs a workforce. You won't get a workforce if you're paying them £3p/h as some people seem to be suggesting.

Longer term I believe everyone should be "paid" evenly (in food, housing and goods) no matter whether they show the skills of a sportsman, a doctor, a politician or a street sweeper, an entertainer, a teacher or a carer of the infirm. Everyone has a valid role to play in society and once we reach this point there will be no more stealing as everyone will have the same and nobody will be able to sell it.

I disagree with this strongly, and it's a very dangerous route to go.
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If jobs were available paying £3/hr, some people would take them. The market should set wages, not the government. The minimum wage should be abolished.
 
Dr Who said:
Everyone has a valid role to play in society and once we reach this point there will be no more stealing as everyone will have the same and nobody will be able to sell it.
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Socialism like this will never work, humans are too easy to corrupt due to our inbuilt instinct to survive. Every person has a price, altruism does not exist.
 
Ahleckz said:
That's ridiculous. We have a duty, as reasonable human beings, to ensure that those who are willing to work are remunerated in a proper, deserving manner. I'm not suggesting that everyone should be on 25k a year (though that would be nice), I'm stating that we, as compassionate and reasonable people, should ensure that everyone is able to support themselves through the work that they do. To suggest otherwise is absurd.
Life is far more important than skills and 'things'.
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Inflating the costs does not help anyone, because it doesn't solve the reason why goods and services have different prices.

When you inflate employment costs, you also inflate the cost of goods and services, you ensure that the people who's pay you have increased still are no better off than they were before.

I'm a strong proponant (as Tefal has mentioned) of negative income tax, thereby ensuring both a minimum income and no benefit trap, as well as acting to ensure that people have a living income, without loading this all onto production and employment costs.
 
Dr Who said:
Dolph, you usually make a lot of sense, but I think you oversimplify on this one.

As a society we should be supporting those that cannot, especially as there is way too much wealth in "the ruling classes".

Wealth distribution in the world is way to unfair based on a few hereditary issues. No persons life is worth more than another (at birth) but where you are born can make a huge difference to wealth, opportunity, attitudes etc etc.

Longer term I believe everyone should be "paid" evenly (in food, housing and goods) no matter whether they show the skills of a sportsman, a doctor, a politician or a street sweeper, an entertainer, a teacher or a carer of the infirm. Everyone has a valid role to play in society and once we reach this point there will be no more stealing as everyone will have the same and nobody will be able to sell it.

Sure it's cloud cuckoo right now, but once the world economy crashes, someone is gonna have to take a look back and say how can we get it right next time. We can learn a lot from how Bee and Ant colonies work together as a whole and don't spend their lives trying to compete with or **** each other over.

Gene Rodenberry saw this many years ago. ;)
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Your idea of utopia sounds like hell, a controlling, authoritarian mess, coincidentally, exactly what has happened every time it has been attempted...
 
Dolph said:
Inflating the costs does not help anyone, because it doesn't solve the reason why goods and services have different prices.

When you inflate employment costs, you also inflate the cost of goods and services, you ensure that the people who's pay you have increased still are no better off than they were before.

I'm a strong proponant (as Tefal has mentioned) of negative income tax, thereby ensuring both a minimum income and no benefit trap, as well as acting to ensure that people have a living income, without loading this all onto production and employment costs.
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I'll look into that negative income tax, when I have some more time, it sounds quite interesting after reading the first line on wiki.

Bye for now chaps, have fun debating.
 
dirtydog said:
Utterly disagree. You are talking about communism / socialism and that doctrine has proven itself a failure.
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No I am not, communism and socialism both use MONEY. Same as capitalism which is now failing. The pursuit of meanigless paper which is a debt based economy.

You need to watch
and watch it all, this is the ONLY sustainable model for the future of the world.
 
Dolph said:
Your idea of utopia sounds like hell, a controlling, authoritarian mess, coincidentally, exactly what has happened every time it has been attempted...
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See above, and how is it more of a hell than what we have right now? People languishing on boats spending millions on cars/homes/food while in Somalia millions are starving because they were born in the wrong place?

I think you need to redefine your values and what you regard as hell.
 
Dr Who said:
No I am not, communism and socialism both use MONEY. Same as capitalism which is now failing. The pursuit of meanigless paper which is a debt based economy.

You need to watch
and watch it all, this is the ONLY sustainable model for the future of the world.
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You cannot have a society without an economy, if you don't base it on money, there still has to be value to things.
 
Dr Who said:
See above, and how is it more of a hell than what we have right now? People languishing on boats spending millions on cars/homes/food while in Somalia millions are starving because they were born in the wrong place?

I think you need to redefine your values and what you regard as hell.
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Without control of your finances, you can never have freedom.

I'd rather have freedom to fail than no freedom at all.
 
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