david cameron ''children should stand up''
- Thread starter cm1179
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I did actually bring this point up already but, as per GD, some people are too busy focusing on scoring points off other members and posting in a rapid fire fashion to bother reading other posts...
Schools without discipline and respect = education failure. Simply actions of showing respect in this way would go a long way in bringing some much needed order to many chaotic educational institutions.
It also teaches the basic idea of respect your elders. Whilst it might be old fashioned it still the grass roots fundamentals of a disciplined society.
No one has argued that young people should be treated with more respect than old people. The general argument is more everyone should be treated with equal respect and not make assumptions due to position or age.
You create a very unequal society when respect only flows one way, upwards, in the case of a lot of the older members.
A society can`t function where members don`t show respect to each other. This doesn`t mean you have to earn everyone`s respect that`s impossible no?
he didn't say there were the same, he gave an example of the concept of giving respect to the position and authority someone holds rather than simply to the deeds of the individual.
To some extent, the fact that someone has attained that position of authority engenders and indicates that person deserves a type of respect from the outset....if they subsequently show that the respect you give is misplaced then they should not be in that position of authority to begin with and that should be dealt with by their authority, in a teacher case their Headmaster, School Board and the Parents of the Child.
Not been in the military I see.....
What the exercise is doing is teaching that in life there are rules to be adhered to, even if you do not understand the reasons for them or agree with them, it also teaches that there is a basic level of behaviour expected of people, as in school, so in life.
It doesn't have to be standing before a teacher asks you to take your seat, that is only one mechanism for instilling and reinforcing those basic values.
Actually he wasn't. Also your attitude seems to be somewhat descending into abject rudeness for no apparent reason, it isn't big or clever it just makes you look foolish.
Anyway, he was illustrating how someone in the military is not showing deference to the individual when they salute, they are showing deference to the rank, authority and position that the individual holds....this is analogous to the point being made about the respect that a Teacher deserves, not because of the individual, but because of the position and authority that they hold.
You asked for a source....I am giving you one. Me.
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You shuldnt have to earn a basic level of respect though. If I were to meet a stranger for the same time, they would get the same level of respect as I would expect to get back.
You said:
I quoted it, I responded to this point, I can not have been clearer and this is the way forums work. People make points, other people agree or disagree with them and that is what I did. To make it easier to you, THIS is what I think is **** and I am FULLY aware of the thread context, within that context and out of that context your point is simply wrong, as I said...as is your use of 'betters' which I still believe shows your REAL issue.
See above, that is why we have a quotes system, so you can't make it clear.....if people bother to pay attention of course....
Again, see above....
I quoted it, I responded to this point, I can not have been clearer and this is the way forums work. People make points, other people agree or disagree with them and that is what I did. To make it easier to you, THIS is what I think is **** and I am FULLY aware of the thread context, within that context and out of that context your point is simply wrong, as I said...as is your use of 'betters' which I still believe shows your REAL issue.
See above, that is why we have a quotes system, so you can't make it clear.....if people bother to pay attention of course....
Again, see above....
This. They will NOT stand to show any kind of respect, they'll stand because they're told to.
In theory yes, but as amp said earlier also, to which I totally agree, teachers who respected you back got it back properly, while the ones who didn't and just assumed you should do whatever the hell they wanted because they were in authority got none of it. Even if some of them were strict enough to not have a disruptive class, absolutely nobody liked having them as a teacher which is just as bad a situation.
Disruptive students were going to be more disruptive towards teachers who they saw as deserving of been wound up. I won't claim to be a perfect student, I did my fair share of it towards teachers that started to get on my **** too, but I also gave teachers respect who didn't take it for granted.
Basically, and I see his point. Why should children respect their elders knowing full well they are the ones that will be paying for those elders mistakes, ie. the economy and national debt.
We always have exceptional reports from his school and the various clubs he attends.....we have always taught him that the level of freedom and trust he recieves is dependent on the amount of respect, courtesy and behaviour he displays.
It seems to work, although he is now entering puberty so we have hormones to contend with....
So basically you treat him with respect and he treats you with respect... The way it should be.
I actually lolled at that because it is so wrong and you read the daily mail too much...
Equal respect no, but always with courtesy and with respect when they've earn't it, through deeds or achievement, such as gaining knowledge to impart to the younger generation perhaps...
But society isn't equal and it never will be equal. In the same way that people want to have all around mutual respect they feel they have the right to expect it when they have done little or noting to earn it and sadly kids have done far less due to having far less time here to earn it. Respect comes around to all those who earn it, courtesy should be a given, not least in England where it's one of the few things we are still known for globally our manners.
Thanks for the explanation. I am not too good at conveying my thought trains in writing and you pretty much summarised exactly the point I was trying to make about general respect for positions of authority.
When something is forced upon you that is called opression. Both the teacher and student know the act of standing isn't done with true intent and that it is a forced.
To me this is the wrong way of teaching and is simply conditioning them to just obey without question.
The way it was worded indicated they were the same, if not then i apologise.
The moment the argument was lost and resulted in calling me a child doesnt?
I look far from foolish.
Means nothing to me when I don't know you and for all I know could a street sweeper
And here we are. Discipline =/ respect...
Discipline tells you to salute the rank, that does not mean by default you have any respect for that person.
Respect from that person has to be earned, discipline tells you how to react to that person in general. If you respect someone you will find it far easier to be disciplined around that person (or in the military case, follow their orders).
that respect was freely given without reservation.....it was not earned, it would be damaged or removed if either party was to do something serious enough that deserved that. The respect is mutual and is given by default, the continuance of that respect is dependent on earnongbit, not the initial assumption of it.
In the case of a teacher-student relationship, respect should be the default position, not something that is only given if and when it is earned.....
As I explained earlier:
"To some extent, the fact that someone has attained that position of authority engenders and indicates that person deserves a type of respect from the outset....if they subsequently show that the respect you give is misplaced then they should not be in that position of authority to begin with and that should be dealt with by their authority, in a teacher case their Headmaster, School Board and the Parents of the Child."
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Means nothing to me when I don't know you and for all I know could a street sweeper
Yea, but at least he's not a teacher...
