david cameron ''children should stand up''

steve-h said:
Me too... but the weird thing was, at the same time, some teachers could control the class without a problem. Funny that...
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Yes some teachers definitely had the "knack" for it whereas some didn't. In my experience it was the veterans who had been doing it for years and years and I respected them for it. I still think it can be extremely damaging being in a classroom where the kids walk all over the teacher.

What I'm saying is that it's harder for teachers nowadays because they aren't given the authority that they once were.
 
I thought children already did stand up at school when a teacher or another member of staff walked into the room? I did, and I'm not long out of school/university :confused:
 
Interesting article

http://www.historyextra.com/feature/youth-culture-and-crime-what-can-we-learn-history

The general point being that the nostalgic view of 'things were better in my day' and the decline of standards of the 'youth of today' is just a fallacy that is purported by every generation. Even in recent history remember the teddy boys, rockers, punks, skin heads...all aspects of anti-social behaviour exhibited by the youth.
 
Reading this thread and the views within forces me to conclude that there are some seriously strange individuals on OCUK, and they are completely unaware of it.
 
Amp34 said:
In the old days you could hit them and force them to respect your cane, shoe, belt or hand, nowadays you actually need to get them to respect you, a big change for some of the older members of society.;)
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in the old days they had discipline I schools. Nowadays you have none. That's what the older members of society have a problem with. It's all gone backwards with too much emphasis placed on the children's rights*



* Although beating kids isn't really acceptable in any form. However I'm against the anti-smacking brigade. Very young children need a slight tap (as in not beating them) sometimes. I'm sure people will disagree. Probably youths. :D
 
Castiel said:
The teacher has authority...yes?

The teacher asks the pupil to stand.....

The teachers authority give the teacher the right to do this.....

The pupil refuses, thus ignoring the authority of the teacher and therefore is not following instructions given.

A punishment given for not following an instruction given by someone with the authority to do so is just.

In a similar way, if you parents said you could not go out until 11pm and be home by 9pm, yet you simply didn't bother with the instruction given so you come home at 11pm anyway...

Does your parent not have the right to punish you for ignoring their authority?
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Sorry Castiel, I usually agree with you on a lot of your debates, but how can you not see that this is wrong?

Completely wrong.

The original point of this thread was that Cameron thinks that students should show respect by standing for their teachers.

The point of the matter is it would do the complete opposite of make the pupils respect the teacher, they would do it because they have to, not because they want to or because they respect them. It is a stupid idea, and is so backwards. You earlier quoted the definition of respect, the top meaning used the word admiration, they are not showing admiration. Can you not see that by making the pupils stand it is just a thing for the teachers to feel more powerful and to have a power trip? That is completely wrong in this society.

I would like to readdress what I said earlier in that, some students regardless of the school will simply not want to be there, some people just don't like academic studies, and being forced to do it for 12 years of your life in my eyes is wrong. I discussed with mollymoo earlier that maybe splitting up into options at an earlier stage in life is a better idea rather than how it works now. Obviously some core subjects are still taught and they must attend primary school first to learn basic english and maths skills. Some students don't want to be at school, they don't want to learn maths english and science for 12 years of their life.

I understand that how the education system is laid out is probably the best way at the moment, the majority of students go to school and learn some good things that will set them up for further life. But how about after primary school or maybe year 9, they are given the option to split to study something they enjoy a trade for example. It would allow for the people studying academic subjects to not be held back and push forward and it would allow the people doing the trade to do something they want.

Note:

Not sure I made myself clear earlier, my point was that the students that disprespect teachers these days are usually the ones who hate being at school. They don't disprespect the teachers because of who they are, they disrespect them because of what they are. In their eyes they are someone who they have to watch for an hour talking about something they don't care about and they are being forced to by this person. As such they have little respect for them.
 
Dimple said:
Which older generation?
Who exactly has ruined your chances because me and Castiel certainly haven't?
Have your teachers ruined your your chances?
Actually your teachers are doing exactly the opposite by trying to educate you so show them some respect.
You are blaming all adults for the faults of a few in power which is quite a silly thing to do.
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You need to read the rest of my thread posts as you have got this wrong.
 
"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they allow disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children now are tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.” - Socrates
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Long may the yapping continue.
 
Tyron said:
You need to read the rest of my thread posts as you have got this wrong.
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I'm replying to this -

Tyron said:
The elder generation showed no respect and lack of care to the younger generation or the damage they were doing for ruining the younger generation, robbing them of their future and making over a million youth unemployed, and will be forced to pay for their elders mistakes for god knows how long.

Why should the younger generation respect the elders?
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Which elder generation and why are you stereotyping us all into being your downfall?
Name the people?
You should show respect to your teachers (not the person) because they are trying to educate you.
 
Dimple, read further back it's all explaine, especially when you try to throw me ito the younger generation and still at school looool.
 
Freakbro said:
Interesting article

http://www.historyextra.com/feature/youth-culture-and-crime-what-can-we-learn-history

The general point being that the nostalgic view of 'things were better in my day' and the decline of standards of the 'youth of today' is just a fallacy that is purported by every generation. Even in recent history remember the teddy boys, rockers, punks, skin heads...all aspects of anti-social behaviour exhibited by the youth.
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There's quite probably something to the idea that things were better when one was young but probably not for the reasons that some people tend to espouse - I'd go with a lack of knowledge about the wider world being a contributing factor and that would be backed up by the fact that every generation has more and more access to information which comes ever faster to them. If you like it becomes ever easier to be aware of the terrible things that go on in the World and as you get older your horizons will tend to widen from when you were a child - World affairs not being a big concern for 5 year olds generally.

As has been pointed out in that article and by others - people have always lamented declining standards and I suspect they always will. Maybe the high point of the World was when the first humans were children and ever since then we've been on a downward spiral but I'm not willing to put any money on that particular theory.

Mason- said:
Sorry Castiel, I usually agree with you on a lot of your debates, but how can you not see that this is wrong?

Completely wrong.

The original point of this thread was that Cameron thinks that students should show respect by standing for their teachers.
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It's maybe being picky but his point as I understood it was that pupils standing can be a sign of respect towards their teachers and he was applauding the sign itself rather than stating that the method of demonstrating respect was the important thing.

I don't recall standing for my teachers as a normal occurence but thinking about it more there would normally be silence in class before the teacher started which is not quite the same thing but the principle of respect remains.
 
I think that what people are missing when they state categorically that Respect is Earned is that the primary way to earn that respect is to give it.

I do wonder how many of the people who will only give respect to people they think have earned it and not before are the same people that demand respect from everyone regardless.

@Semi pro.....that is how I interpreted it also, the mechanism is unimportant it is the principle that is important.
 
Tyron said:
Respect is earned, not given. Addressing them by their surname is enough.
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+1.

By respect I mean as a preference to neutral (which is neither disrespecting or respecting).

I respect family members with integrity who have earned it through positive actions - it's not something which should be handed to anybody in a position of power.

It should be earned by all.
 
Mason- said:
Sorry Castiel, I usually agree with you on a lot of your debates, but how can you not see that this is wrong?

Completely wrong.
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It is the principle of discipline and showing respect that I am referring to primarily.....not the way in which it is illustrated.

The point I was making to permabanned is that whether we like it or not certain people throughout our lives with have a certain amount of authority over us.......and in the context of school Teachers hold that authority and as such their instructions should be followed.

The teacher asks a pupil to stand, for whatever reason, and the pupil simply refuses.....what does the teacher do, allow the pupil to usurp their authority or do they have the authority to punish for not following the instruction.....similarly with the curfew example...it it unjust to punish a child who refuses to adhere to the boundaries set by their parents?

What does that teach a child, what happens when they enter work and are required to follow the direction of their managers....do they only do it if they feel like it? Because that is what they are being taught if they are allowed to decide which rules are to be followed and which are to be ignored.

Schools have a code of conduct. Pupils are required to follow that code of conduct, not pick and choose which bits they like or dislike.
 
elmarko1234 said:
+1.

By respect I mean as a preference to neutral (which is neither disrespecting or respecting).

I respect family members with integrity who have earned it through positive actions - it's not something which should be handed to anybody in a position of power.

It should be earned by all.
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A very narrow definition of what respect is elmarko...you surprise me.

Also Respect in that narrow definition is earned initially by giving it to others, especially in regard to those in authoritative positions. A default position of mutual respect is what should be the norm, not some arbitrary criteria of deed. People deserve to be treated with dignity first and foremost and that requires a certain amount of respect, only further esteem and deference for the individual should be earned, not the basic principle of mutual respect.

RDM summed it up nicely.
 
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Castiel said:
What does that teach a child, what happens when they enter work and are required to follow the direction of their managers....do they only do it if they feel like it? Because that is what they are being taught if they are allowed to decide which rules are to be followed and which are to be ignored.
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No, you're right. They need to be taught to obey. They should do as the authority tells them to. They shouldn't question the rules, since that's a waste of time because not doing something your higher tells you to do simply /is bad/, regardless what your personal thoughts on the matter may be!
 
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steve-h said:
No, you're right. They need to be taught to obey. They should do as the authority tells them to. They shouldn't question the rules, since that's a waste of time and not doing something your higher tells you to do simply /is bad/, regardless what your personal thoughts on the matter may be!
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You are taking it extremes, no one is suggesting that they do not question the rules, only that they follow them.....if they feel the rules are unfair or unwarranted then they bring that up with their teacher or parent at the right time....simple refusal of adherence to a stated code of conduct is not the way to do it.

Also it is highly likely that the teacher/parent etc has far more experience and understanding of the reasons than the child. I would encourage any child to ask why, but not to simply and willfully disobey because they feel like it.
 
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