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DirectX and OpenGL will start offering low-level access in order to reduce draw overhead

lol :D

In contrast to the DX12 thread, whereby it is lovely this is all happening - I think they might also be a bit butthurt that XBONE sales have been so poor. Combine that with Mantle and this shock wave is them speeding up the development process. Thank you AMD and uninspiring next generation consoles, you're doing the PC industry a huge favour.
 
Typical MS knee jerk to competition, when i worked for Microsoft in the USA their mentality was "if its competition, buy it, or find a way to sue them and close them down" i see nothing has changed much over the years.

As pointed out, its generally good for all games players, as DX is the backbone of pretty much all games nowadays, so any benefits to DX will benefit all, Mantle can atleast be said to have given MS the push needed to get off their rear ends and do something other than coin cash off everyone for poor products.
 
lol :D

In contrast to the DX12 thread, whereby it is lovely this is all happening - I think they might also be a bit butthurt that XBONE sales have been so poor. Combine that with Mantle and this shock wave is them speeding up the development process. Thank you AMD and uninspiring next generation consoles, you're doing the PC industry a huge favour.

You have to love AMD. They release r9's and the 780's price drop. They release Mantle and MS after a 5 or so year gap suddenly remember they are part of the PC gaming industry.

Show the love for AMD, one way or another things are looking up.
 
There was no sign of them doing this before mantle, so it at least has done it's job.

A good point and one that shouldn't be forgotten :)

It may not be as drastic as dead on arrival for mantle, but competition is fierce especially if the above is true about dx12 and ogl. Both have major influences on the PC gaming Industry in their corner, be it an established library on windows or the continuing domination of valve.
 
You have to love AMD. They release r9's and the 780's price drop. They release Mantle and MS after a 5 or so year gap suddenly remember they are part of the PC gaming industry.

Show the love for AMD, one way or another things are looking up.

I'll believe it when I see it. MS is always spouting the "we support PC gamers" BS, and then they never do anything about it. They are too busy trying to sell Xbox games instead.
 
I'll believe it when I see it. MS is always spouting the "we support PC gamers" BS, and then they never do anything about it. They are too busy trying to sell Xbox games instead.

But when there is no competition, as a business it's difficult to find the enthusiasm. Not that it's any excuse as we all lose out as the end result.

Take Intel with netburst. Look how long they strung that out, because AMD couldn't pull anything out of the hat. Then all of a sudden the 64bit chips came about, then a year later we saw Core 2 :).

Since AMD changed their manufacturing process and laid people off and generally haven't brought anything out to compete at the high end, I personally have been suck on the same chipset for 3 years. Mantle is the AMD64 we needed :D

Also they're not selling very many XB games which could be another contributing factor to focussing efforts
 
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Couldn't care less if mantle dies now, If either opengl or directx deliver on these promises then I'll see that as mission accomplished.
 
Couldn't care less if mantle dies now, If either opengl or directx deliver on these promises then I'll see that as mission accomplished.

I respect your honesty :)

AMD have at least given the needed kick up the bum that MS needed. Like Frosty said, no competition means lazy MS. They probably had all their resources pooled into Xbox previously but I am sure they got a leak of Mantle very eraly on and thought it was time to drag some of those Xbox devs away and stick them with that poor fella in the end office booth working on DX. :D

Anything that is competition is good for us gamers. Love/hate Mantle/DX/OGL, the more competition, the better for us gamers :)
 
MS would have has DX12 and these types fixes on the cards as someone said last week, this just kicks them up the butt to get a move on and IMO they need to sort out the company and Windows.

Getting rid of a few idiots was a good start but not keen on this new peep at helm, should be 100% Billy boy.

The DX12 thread is ruined by Mantle charts/spam TBH.

As said above no competition means lazy, goes for MS and Intel as they also have no real competition on CPU front apart from possibly cost.
 
I respect your honesty :)

AMD have at least given the needed kick up the bum that MS needed. Like Frosty said, no competition means lazy MS. They probably had all their resources pooled into Xbox previously but I am sure they got a leak of Mantle very eraly on and thought it was time to drag some of those Xbox devs away and stick them with that poor fella in the end office booth working on DX. :D

Anything that is competition is good for us gamers. Love/hate Mantle/DX/OGL, the more competition, the better for us gamers :)

Exactly I have no misplaced allegiances, I've owned enough of the various manufacturers over the years :).

AMD has done a great thing in forcing change, however as I alluded to in another thread it feels like a lot of their resources have been pooled into pushing mantle. Whilst the latest beta has been great for mantle some of the more basic things are being neglected so imo I'd prefer them to go back to what they were doing in consistently churning out great drivers.
 
As someone above said if mantle was what it took for MS to innovate then its great and everyone's a winner.
 
People do need to realise, reduced CPU overhead is FAR from Mantle's only improvement, and DX has a huge long history of promised improvements that make little or no difference, DX11/.1/.2 have these. Bindless tables (iirc, bindless something or other anyway) was supposed to help hugely yet offers no real world performance improvement, etc, etc. DX/MS has tried to improve these things many times over and simply not delivered. Mantle is already delivering and effectively, MS has tried to make such changes for the past 4-5 years, with DX10 being their "let's build it from the ground up with none of the DX9 old style downsides"................ opps.

You have to factor in that one of the key problems dev's have with DX is that it's a blackbox, they send data in to it, they can't tell what's happening, they can't predict the outcome. It's a case or write some code that should work, send it into this black box of DX, pray it comes out the other side working. When it doesn't there is little to no feedback in why it's not working. Mantle from the ground up was designed to be far more open(almost completely), to integrate design and debugging tools that give dev's direct feedback to precisely where a problem occurred, rather than weeks of e-mailing back and forth with driver teams at both Nvidia and AMD trying to track down numerous unknown issues, they can get to the bottom of the issue themselves very quickly.

There is a reason they guys working with Mantle have said it's quite and easy and has taken few guys little time to port it to Mantle, because a huge amount of extra work is gone.

As for DX, I said when Mantle was announced, the very worst outcome would be MS would actually put some effort into DX, at best it would simply be great itself.

Mantle offers the low level access openGL will likely never do, the non platform specific tie in that DX will only ever offer, and proven end result. As yet, even if we presume MS can deliver what they've promised, what they haven't promised is key. They haven't promised to open DX to all platforms, while possible I can't see MS doing it AND they'll likely tie it to the next Windows version. They haven't promised or as yet hinted at improving the tools or drastically opening up DX to enable it to be more transparent to the devs.

So a dev can focus on Mantle, use the tools to help debug the game as they build it, requires less work fixing problems because they don't have to wait on Nvidia, AMD and MS to help with almost every problem, and have it work(at some stage) on every platform out there. Or they could focus on DX12, limited most likely to Windows 9, and most likely dx12 compatible cards as I can't see them improving code and updating the code in DX11 for instance to be more efficient. They'd still have to do other work again for SteamOS/Linux.


I'd be far happier if openGL was the one promising the world as at least it would work on any platform, but their history of delivering is questionable.

One of the issues is, if DX did become great for now, due to being kicked up the arse. As soon as Mantle say or openGL got knocked back down, then MS would feel no need to stay competitive. Again MS have a vested financial interest in consoles, game sales makes them hugely more cash on consoles. They've let DX stagnate with poor work for donkeys years. The only reason they want to improve it is because of competition, as soon as it's gone they'll stop improving it again.

guys making games, or gpu's, should be in charge of the API, not a company whose focus is console gaming sales, OS sales, and OS lock ins.

Performance drives sales, Nvidia/AMD sell gpu's, their focus has always been performance and always will be, it's why AMD has made a API and pushed performance forward. MS should not be in charge of the industry standard API as their agenda does not tie in directly with gamers. GPU makers agenda DOES tie in with gamers, as do game dev's. Someone, or some group, made of gpu makers/game dev's should be in charge of the industry standard, almost anyone but MS.

If MS win the "API war", then it will benefit everyone for the short term, and long term get us back to where we were right before Mantle, utter stagnation, and gpu's/api being held back for years.
 
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You have to factor in that one of the key problems dev's have with DX is that it's a blackbox, they send data in to it, they can't tell what's happening, they can't predict the outcome. It's a case or write some code that should work, send it into this black box of DX

Where as with Mantle currently you can't even request the SDK, it's closed off and even once it moves out of alpha testing how do you think it will work with 3rd party vendor support? They would have to go through very similar channels for specific changes, only this time with a competing vendor. It benefits everyone as you've rightly pointed out for MS to offer an equally beneficial interface.

After all this though it could turn out that it's actually a whole lot worse than Mantle but we'll cross that bridge soon enough
 
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As someone above said if mantle was what it took for MS to innovate then its great and everyone's a winner.

Let's just wait and see. Based on past performance, it will be a lot of talk and not much action and not for a long time. Or maybe it will be like Nvidia scrabbling for damage control in when confronted with Mantle "Oh, well, we can do something sort of similar with our proprietary OpenGL extensions - maybe".

It took two years to make Mantle, even the mighty MS and Nvidia aren't going to be able to turn on a dime over this. How many years have we had multi-core CPUs, and DX still sucks at the basics of spreading it's load to multiple cores?

The only way this happens quickly is if AMD get Mantle integrated into DX by MS (and this is how many features have been got into shared APIs).
 
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