Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

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They didn't pass a law to ban the Russian language - it got veto'd. I can't say I blame them wanting to get rid of Soviet era statues given what being part of the Soviet Union cost Ukraine.

I think we've already established that anyone who Russia invades "brings it on themselves".

Even though I said I wont respond to you no more....

I`ll just leave this here.....

800px-Soviet_War_Memorial_Tiergarten_Berlin.JPG


This is in Berlin... No one EVER in Germany has even thought about removing this.

Ukranian-nationalist are so dumb that they are removing statues to the person who created Ukraine as a being, aka Lenin.... As many others said, if you want to get rid of Soviet memory, they should also blow up their roads,houses,factories because 95% of things in Ukraine were built by damn commies.
 
I don't see how anybody can hold the view that a Russian occupied Crimea referendum can possibly be fair. Have any of you ever done your research on the controversy surrounding Russian elections?

It's impossible to say which way a fair referendum would have swung before the invasion, therefore right now a referendum is the absolute worst thing that can happen.

It wouldn't surprise me if Putin were building up to a full scale capture of Ukraine, he can just march in and claim he is peacekeeping for Russian citizens before holding a completely "fair" referendum in which Russia happens to win!

Not like the west will do much, everybody in the world is too scared of war right now.
 
They didn't pass a law to ban the Russian language - it got veto'd. I can't say I blame them wanting to get rid of Soviet era statues given what being part of the Soviet Union cost Ukraine.

I think we've already established that anyone who Russia invades "brings it on themselves".

Actually the parliament did pass it, it was just eventually vetoed by the current prime minister.

Reuters (western lackeys) are reporting that pro-Russian supporters are burning Ukrainian language books: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/16/us-ukraine-east-idUSBREA2F0P220140316

There's been violence by both sides for a long time in these regions, I wonder why you never link violence towards anti-maidan citizens.
 
I don't see how anybody can hold the view that a Russian occupied Crimea referendum can possibly be fair. Have any of you ever done your research on the controversy surrounding Russian elections?

It's impossible to say which way a fair referendum would have swung before the invasion, therefore right now a referendum is the absolute worst thing that can happen.

It wouldn't surprise me if Putin were building up to a full scale capture of Ukraine, he can just march in and claim he is peacekeeping for Russian citizens before holding a completely "fair" referendum in which Russia happens to win!

Not like the west will do much, everybody in the world is too scared of war right now.

What makes you think people think it's fair, it's been denounced in the west, western observers refused to oversee the process and western officials already said no matter the outcome they will not recognize it.
 
Interesting propaganda posters pre referendum:

"On 16th March we vote:
[swastika with barb wire] OR [russian flag]
crimeaposter.jpg


You have to give it to Ruskies, they move fast like Blizkrieg.
 
Interesting propaganda posters pre referendum:

"On 16th March we vote:
[swastika with barb wire] OR [russian flag]
crimeaposter.jpg


You have to give it to Ruskies, they move fast like Blizkrieg.

Ruskies are using the situation to their advantage, if the opposition did not remove the President after a deal was signed with western and Russian observers, all of this wouldn't have happened.

Sometimes I wonder, if this all have been a plan all along... Because the new Ukrainian government just gave Putin green light to bite off whole eastern Ukraine... With support of those regions population.
 
I presume immediately after securing Krim borders the unmarked Russian forces will move to Donyetsk Oblast and Kharkov to organise further referendums?
 
I found a good video from German Bundrstag, I see it as balanced and mostly unbiased... Translation is only in text, if you know German you can watch original.


Translation;

13.03.2014, Bundestag, Berlin, Germany.

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXLy0NGW9sM

Gregor Gysi of the german Party "Die Linke" to the situation in Ukraine.
Translation by "iskra".

"The leader of the opposition, Gregor Gysi, will speak now:

Mr. President, ladies and gentlemen. Putin wants to solve the whole crisis in Ukraine militarily. He has not understood that the problems of humanity can neither be solved by soldiers, nor by weapons. On the contrary. Also Russia’s problems cannot be solved this way. His thinking and his actions are wrong and we condemn them explicitly. Yet, it is the same thinking that was and is present in the west for Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Iraq and Lybia. System confrontations were replaced by the opposing interests of the USA and Russia. The Cold War is over, but such opposing interests can lead to very similar traits. The USA want to gain more influence and defend existing influence and Russia wants to gain more influence and defend existing influence. When talking about Russia, I shall only mention Georgia, Syria, Ukraine.

Even when one condemns Putin’s actions, one must also look at how the whole confrontation and intensification came to be. And I shall tell it to you very clearly: Everything that the NATO and the EU could have done wrong, was done wrong.

I begin with Gorbachev in the year 1990. He suggested to form a common European house: Dissolving of the NATO and the Warsaw Pact and finding a common security with Russia. This is what the NATO denied. They said: Dissolving the Warsaw Pact: Yes. The NATO stays… And from the defending alliance was made an interventional alliance. The second error: With the creation of German unity, the US foreign minister and the German foreign minister of the time, Genscher, and other foreign ministers told Gorbachev: No eastwards extension of the NATO will take place. This promise was broken. There was a radical extension of the NATO towards Russia. And the former US foreign minister Robert Gates described the rapid inclusion of the East European states into the NATO as a grave mistake and the attempt of the West to include Ukraine into the NATO as grave provocation - that’s not what I said, this was said by the former US foreign minister! Then, third, the decision was made to station rockets in Poland and the Czech Republic. The Russian government said: This concerns our security interests, we do not want this. The West couldn’t care less and it was done anyway. And finally, the NATO gravely and repeatedly violated international law in the Yugoslavian war. This is meanwhile even confirmed by former German chancellor Schröder. Serbia had not attacked another state and there was no decree of the UN Security Council. And yet, bombs were dropped, and for the first time since 1945 with German involvement. The citizens of Kosovo were allowed to decide for the separation from Serbia in a plebiscite.

Back then, I heavily criticised these violations of international law and I have told you for the case of Kosovo that a Pandora’s Box is being opened. Because if this is allowed in Kosovo, then you must also allow it in other regions. You insulted me. You did not take it seriously. And you did this because you thought you were such victors of the Cold War that all old measures were not applicable to you anymore. I tell you: The Basks ask why they can’t have a plebiscite that asks whether they want to belong to Spain or not. The Catalans ask why they can’t have a plebiscite that asks whether they want to belong to Spain or not. And so do the citizens of Crimea. And through violation of international law, through habitual law, you can create new international law, you know that. Yet, my opinion stands that the detachment of Crimea would be violating international law - as was the detachment of Kosovo.

I knew that Putin would refer to Kosovo and that is just what he did. And now you, Ms. chancellor, tell me that this situation is totally different. [Someone (Ms. Roth?) shouting “It is!”]. Yes, that may be… But you disregard that international law violation is international law violation. My dear Ms. Roth, why don’t you ask a judge if a theft of noble motive is not a theft in comparison to a theft of non-noble motive. He will tell you that it stays a theft. That is the problem! That is the problem! And Mr. Struck has explained a while ago that the Federal Republic of Germany must defend its security at the Hindu Kush. Now Mr. Putin explains Russia must defend its security at Crimea. Germany, by the way, had no fleet at Hindu Kush and was considerably further away. Still I say, both sentences were and are wrong.

Yet, the following holds: When many international law violators blames international law violator Russia to violate international law, this is not particularly effective and trustworthy. That is the fact we are facing. Obama spoke, like you, Ms. chancellor, of the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the nations. But, these two principles were violated in Serbia, Iraq and Lybia. The West thought it could violate international law because the Cold War was over. Chinese and Russian interest were heavily underestimated. You did not take Russia with Yeltsin, who was often even drunk, serious anymore. But the situation changed. Very lately, you now again reference the principles of international law that were established in the Cold War. I am very much in favour of them being valid again, but then for all! This is the only way.

Then there was the tug of war between the EU and Russia with Ukraine in the middle. Both thought and acted the same. Barroso, head of the European Commission, said EITHER customs union with Russia OR contracts with us. He did not say BOTH. Either-or! And Putin said EITHER contracts with us OR the EU. Both thought and acted alternatively in the same way. It was a gigantic mistake from both sides. No EU foreign minister tried to speak to the Russian government while even recognising the rightful security interests of Russia. Russia is afraid that behind the EU, the NATO will enter Ukraine. It feels more and more surrounded. But everyone pulled at Ukraine. The EU and NATO foreign ministers completely ignored the history of Ukraine. They never understood the importance of Crimea to Russia. And Ukrainian society is deeply divided. Also this was not recognised. This deep division already showed in WWII. And it shows today. East Ukraine tends to Russia, West Ukraine tends to western Europe. At this moment, there is no single Ukrainian political figure that could represent both parts of society. That is a sad truth.

And then there is the Council of Europe and the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) which you gravely neglected, Ms. chancellor, Mr. foreign minister. The funding for these organisations was cut more and more in the past because you thought they were not important. Yet they are the only organisations in which both Russia and Ukraine also take part. Thus we must strengthen these organisations and not discuss over Russia’s exclusion. That is completely missing the point.

Then we saw a massive intensification on Maidan. Then we saw snipers and many deaths. There are various rumours. In such situations, people lie a lot. And that is why, in such situations, we propose an international investigation committee. We and the Ukrainians have a right to know what happened there, who is responsible… And I am happy that you support this, Ms. chancellor. On Maidan, there were many democratic forces. But also fascists. The west was directly and indirectly involved. And then foreign minister Steinmeier, the French and Polish foreign minister signed a contract with Janukovych and the opposition. And now you say, Mr. foreign minister, Janukovych dissolved the contract through his fleeing. That is wrong. The people on Maidan rejected this contract with great majority. And you, Mr. foreign minister, also did not advertise for this contract on the site. And only after the rejection, Janukovych left Kiev. Then, parliament had a meeting, and they voted him out of office with 72.88%. Yet, the constitution dictates 75%. Now Mr. Röttgen and others say, well, during a revolution you can’t take the constitution to the letter, what are a few percentiles more or less?… But Putin references this and says there was no constitutional majority to vote him out of office, and refers to documents received from Janukovych. By the way, during the poll, armed soldiers were present. Not very democratic. During the plebiscite in Crimea on Sunday, there will also be armed soldiers. Also not very democratic. Interesting is also that you, Ms. chancellor, say, that such a plebiscite is forbidden by the Ukrainian constitution. So when is the constitution to be upheld, and when not? When electing the president out of office it is not and for the plebiscite in Crimea it is? You should decide whether you accept the constitution as a whole or only in specific cases when you feel like it. The latter is the way I have seen and don’t like.

Then a new government was formed. Directly accepted by president Obama, also by the EU, also from Germany. Ms. Merkel! This government’s vice premier minister, the defence minister, the agricultural minister, the environmental minister, the Attorney General… are fascists! The head of the national security committee was co-founder of the fascist Swoboda party. Fascists have important positions and dominate, for example, the security sector. And never have fascists voluntarily given up power once they had conquered a part of it. At least Germany should have drawn the line here, especially because of our history. When Haider’s FPÖ joined the government in Austra, there were even contact barriers! And with the fascists in Ukraine we do nothing?! Swoboda has close contacts to the NPD and other nazi parties in Europe. The chairman of this party, Olek Tjahnybok, has stated the following. I am going to quote him now. You need to grasp this, what he has said literally: “Grab your weapons. Fight the Russian pigs, the Germans and the Jew swines and others pests”. End of quote. I repeat. This man has said “Grab your weapons. Fight the Russian pigs, the Germans and the Jew swines and others pests”. Attacks on jews and left-wingers are now common and to all this you say nothing? You talk with these Swoboda people? I think this is a scandal. I have to tell you this clearly.

Now you want, as you said, to impose sanctions, if all else fails. But they will not impress Putin. They will only make the situation worse. Kissinger, the former US foreign minister, is right. He says sanctions do not express a strategy but the lack of a strategy. That also holds for the escalating military flights over Poland and the Baltic states: What’s the point? Accounts of Janukovych and his supporters are blocked because they contain stolen state funds. My question: You did not know this? Second question: Why only their accounts? What is with the billions of oligarch money to support others, why aren’t you interfering there? Why is this going so one-sided?

There is only the way of diplomacy! First: The West must recognise the legitimate security interests of Russia on Crimea, which is by the way also how US foreign minister Kerry sees it. We must find a status for Crimea with which Ukraine, Russia and we can live. We have to guarantee Russia that Ukraine will not become a NATO member. Second: The perspective of Ukraine lies in a bridge function between the EU and Russia. Third: A process of understanding between east and west must be initiated in Ukraine, maybe through a federal or confederal status, maybe even through two presidents. What I accuse the EU and the NATO of: Until today, no relationship to Russia has been searched or found. This has to change dramatically. Security in Europe is not possible against or without Russia but only with Russia. And if the crisis is overcome one day, one advantage could be that international law is finally recognised by all sides again. Thank you. "
 
Actually the parliament did pass it, it was just eventually vetoed by the current prime minister.

I'm no expert on Ukrainian politics, but in general laws get vetoed before they make it on the statute books. If a law makes it onto the statute books and is then repealed, that is called a repeal.
 
Even though I said I wont respond to you no more....

I`ll just leave this here.....

800px-Soviet_War_Memorial_Tiergarten_Berlin.JPG


This is in Berlin... No one EVER in Germany has even thought about removing this.

Ukranian-nationalist are so dumb that they are removing statues to the person who created Ukraine as a being, aka Lenin.... As many others said, if you want to get rid of Soviet memory, they should also blow up their roads,houses,factories because 95% of things in Ukraine were built by damn commies.

That's a war memorial not a statue of Lenin. Slight difference.
 
I'm no expert on Ukrainian politics, but in general laws get vetoed before they make it on the statute books. If a law makes it onto the statute books and is then repealed, that is called a repeal.

On 23 February 2014, following the 2014 Ukrainian Revolution the Verkhovna Rada voted to repeal the law on regional languages, making Ukrainian the sole state language at all levels. The bill repealing the law was voted by 232 deputies out of 450 (226 required for passage).

The parliament repealed the law with majority vote.

If you are addressing my
"parliament did pass it"
by that I mean parliament voted in favor of repeal and the prime minister vetoed it later.
 
The parliament repealed the law with majority vote.

If you are addressing my by that I mean parliament voted in favor of repeal and the prime minister vetoed it later.

The point is that the change to the law making Ukrainian the only official language was never made.

BBC Breaking News is that Crimean election officials are reporting that 95.5% of voters in the referendum voted in favour of joining Russia with half the ballots in. It's like they can't even be bothered maintaining the pretence that this is a fair referendum.
 
The point is that the change to the law making Ukrainian the only official language was never made.

BBC Breaking News is that Crimean election officials are reporting that 95.5% of voters in the referendum voted in favour of joining Russia with half the ballots in. It's like they can't even be bothered maintaining the pretence that this is a fair referendum.

There is no need to disregard that 232 deputies out of 450 voted to repeal that law and what said detail shows to the non-Ukrainian speaking citizens. To disregard it, is to disregard all the details of Crimean vote and simply judge the outcome.
 
There is no need to disregard that 232 deputies out of 450 voted to repeal that law and what said detail shows to the non-Ukrainian speaking citizens. To disregard it, is to disregard all the details of Crimean vote and simply judge the outcome.

Well in that case let's not disregard that 13 out of 15 members of the UN SC voted in favour of declaring the Crimean referendum invalid.
 
Well in that case let's not disregard that 13 out of 15 members of the UN SC voted in favour of declaring the Crimean referendum invalid.

What makes you think people think it's fair, it's been denounced in the west, western observers refused to oversee the process and western officials already said no matter the outcome they will not recognize it.

I have to correct you because you always show extreme bias and withholding of information, whereas my posts did not disregard the detail you talk about here. I am mostly concerned with facts and view on the subject from different balanced prospective.

Edit: Also in case this post was burried in
I found a good video from German Bundrstag, I see it as balanced and mostly unbiased... Translation is only in text, if you know German you can watch original.


Translation;

13.03.2014, Bundestag, Berlin, Germany.

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXLy0NGW9sM

Gregor Gysi of the german Party "Die Linke" to the situation in Ukraine.
Translation by "iskra".

"The leader of the opposition, Gregor Gysi, will speak now:

Mr. President, ladies and gentlemen. Putin wants to solve the whole crisis in Ukraine militarily. He has not understood that the problems of humanity can neither be solved by soldiers, nor by weapons. On the contrary. Also Russia’s problems cannot be solved this way. His thinking and his actions are wrong and we condemn them explicitly. Yet, it is the same thinking that was and is present in the west for Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Iraq and Lybia. System confrontations were replaced by the opposing interests of the USA and Russia. The Cold War is over, but such opposing interests can lead to very similar traits. The USA want to gain more influence and defend existing influence and Russia wants to gain more influence and defend existing influence. When talking about Russia, I shall only mention Georgia, Syria, Ukraine.

Even when one condemns Putin’s actions, one must also look at how the whole confrontation and intensification came to be. And I shall tell it to you very clearly: Everything that the NATO and the EU could have done wrong, was done wrong.

I begin with Gorbachev in the year 1990. He suggested to form a common European house: Dissolving of the NATO and the Warsaw Pact and finding a common security with Russia. This is what the NATO denied. They said: Dissolving the Warsaw Pact: Yes. The NATO stays… And from the defending alliance was made an interventional alliance. The second error: With the creation of German unity, the US foreign minister and the German foreign minister of the time, Genscher, and other foreign ministers told Gorbachev: No eastwards extension of the NATO will take place. This promise was broken. There was a radical extension of the NATO towards Russia. And the former US foreign minister Robert Gates described the rapid inclusion of the East European states into the NATO as a grave mistake and the attempt of the West to include Ukraine into the NATO as grave provocation - that’s not what I said, this was said by the former US foreign minister! Then, third, the decision was made to station rockets in Poland and the Czech Republic. The Russian government said: This concerns our security interests, we do not want this. The West couldn’t care less and it was done anyway. And finally, the NATO gravely and repeatedly violated international law in the Yugoslavian war. This is meanwhile even confirmed by former German chancellor Schröder. Serbia had not attacked another state and there was no decree of the UN Security Council. And yet, bombs were dropped, and for the first time since 1945 with German involvement. The citizens of Kosovo were allowed to decide for the separation from Serbia in a plebiscite.

Back then, I heavily criticised these violations of international law and I have told you for the case of Kosovo that a Pandora’s Box is being opened. Because if this is allowed in Kosovo, then you must also allow it in other regions. You insulted me. You did not take it seriously. And you did this because you thought you were such victors of the Cold War that all old measures were not applicable to you anymore. I tell you: The Basks ask why they can’t have a plebiscite that asks whether they want to belong to Spain or not. The Catalans ask why they can’t have a plebiscite that asks whether they want to belong to Spain or not. And so do the citizens of Crimea. And through violation of international law, through habitual law, you can create new international law, you know that. Yet, my opinion stands that the detachment of Crimea would be violating international law - as was the detachment of Kosovo.

I knew that Putin would refer to Kosovo and that is just what he did. And now you, Ms. chancellor, tell me that this situation is totally different. [Someone (Ms. Roth?) shouting “It is!”]. Yes, that may be… But you disregard that international law violation is international law violation. My dear Ms. Roth, why don’t you ask a judge if a theft of noble motive is not a theft in comparison to a theft of non-noble motive. He will tell you that it stays a theft. That is the problem! That is the problem! And Mr. Struck has explained a while ago that the Federal Republic of Germany must defend its security at the Hindu Kush. Now Mr. Putin explains Russia must defend its security at Crimea. Germany, by the way, had no fleet at Hindu Kush and was considerably further away. Still I say, both sentences were and are wrong.

Yet, the following holds: When many international law violators blames international law violator Russia to violate international law, this is not particularly effective and trustworthy. That is the fact we are facing. Obama spoke, like you, Ms. chancellor, of the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the nations. But, these two principles were violated in Serbia, Iraq and Lybia. The West thought it could violate international law because the Cold War was over. Chinese and Russian interest were heavily underestimated. You did not take Russia with Yeltsin, who was often even drunk, serious anymore. But the situation changed. Very lately, you now again reference the principles of international law that were established in the Cold War. I am very much in favour of them being valid again, but then for all! This is the only way.

Then there was the tug of war between the EU and Russia with Ukraine in the middle. Both thought and acted the same. Barroso, head of the European Commission, said EITHER customs union with Russia OR contracts with us. He did not say BOTH. Either-or! And Putin said EITHER contracts with us OR the EU. Both thought and acted alternatively in the same way. It was a gigantic mistake from both sides. No EU foreign minister tried to speak to the Russian government while even recognising the rightful security interests of Russia. Russia is afraid that behind the EU, the NATO will enter Ukraine. It feels more and more surrounded. But everyone pulled at Ukraine. The EU and NATO foreign ministers completely ignored the history of Ukraine. They never understood the importance of Crimea to Russia. And Ukrainian society is deeply divided. Also this was not recognised. This deep division already showed in WWII. And it shows today. East Ukraine tends to Russia, West Ukraine tends to western Europe. At this moment, there is no single Ukrainian political figure that could represent both parts of society. That is a sad truth.

And then there is the Council of Europe and the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) which you gravely neglected, Ms. chancellor, Mr. foreign minister. The funding for these organisations was cut more and more in the past because you thought they were not important. Yet they are the only organisations in which both Russia and Ukraine also take part. Thus we must strengthen these organisations and not discuss over Russia’s exclusion. That is completely missing the point.

Then we saw a massive intensification on Maidan. Then we saw snipers and many deaths. There are various rumours. In such situations, people lie a lot. And that is why, in such situations, we propose an international investigation committee. We and the Ukrainians have a right to know what happened there, who is responsible… And I am happy that you support this, Ms. chancellor. On Maidan, there were many democratic forces. But also fascists. The west was directly and indirectly involved. And then foreign minister Steinmeier, the French and Polish foreign minister signed a contract with Janukovych and the opposition. And now you say, Mr. foreign minister, Janukovych dissolved the contract through his fleeing. That is wrong. The people on Maidan rejected this contract with great majority. And you, Mr. foreign minister, also did not advertise for this contract on the site. And only after the rejection, Janukovych left Kiev. Then, parliament had a meeting, and they voted him out of office with 72.88%. Yet, the constitution dictates 75%. Now Mr. Röttgen and others say, well, during a revolution you can’t take the constitution to the letter, what are a few percentiles more or less?… But Putin references this and says there was no constitutional majority to vote him out of office, and refers to documents received from Janukovych. By the way, during the poll, armed soldiers were present. Not very democratic. During the plebiscite in Crimea on Sunday, there will also be armed soldiers. Also not very democratic. Interesting is also that you, Ms. chancellor, say, that such a plebiscite is forbidden by the Ukrainian constitution. So when is the constitution to be upheld, and when not? When electing the president out of office it is not and for the plebiscite in Crimea it is? You should decide whether you accept the constitution as a whole or only in specific cases when you feel like it. The latter is the way I have seen and don’t like.

Then a new government was formed. Directly accepted by president Obama, also by the EU, also from Germany. Ms. Merkel! This government’s vice premier minister, the defence minister, the agricultural minister, the environmental minister, the Attorney General… are fascists! The head of the national security committee was co-founder of the fascist Swoboda party. Fascists have important positions and dominate, for example, the security sector. And never have fascists voluntarily given up power once they had conquered a part of it. At least Germany should have drawn the line here, especially because of our history. When Haider’s FPÖ joined the government in Austra, there were even contact barriers! And with the fascists in Ukraine we do nothing?! Swoboda has close contacts to the NPD and other nazi parties in Europe. The chairman of this party, Olek Tjahnybok, has stated the following. I am going to quote him now. You need to grasp this, what he has said literally: “Grab your weapons. Fight the Russian pigs, the Germans and the Jew swines and others pests”. End of quote. I repeat. This man has said “Grab your weapons. Fight the Russian pigs, the Germans and the Jew swines and others pests”. Attacks on jews and left-wingers are now common and to all this you say nothing? You talk with these Swoboda people? I think this is a scandal. I have to tell you this clearly.

Now you want, as you said, to impose sanctions, if all else fails. But they will not impress Putin. They will only make the situation worse. Kissinger, the former US foreign minister, is right. He says sanctions do not express a strategy but the lack of a strategy. That also holds for the escalating military flights over Poland and the Baltic states: What’s the point? Accounts of Janukovych and his supporters are blocked because they contain stolen state funds. My question: You did not know this? Second question: Why only their accounts? What is with the billions of oligarch money to support others, why aren’t you interfering there? Why is this going so one-sided?

There is only the way of diplomacy! First: The West must recognise the legitimate security interests of Russia on Crimea, which is by the way also how US foreign minister Kerry sees it. We must find a status for Crimea with which Ukraine, Russia and we can live. We have to guarantee Russia that Ukraine will not become a NATO member. Second: The perspective of Ukraine lies in a bridge function between the EU and Russia. Third: A process of understanding between east and west must be initiated in Ukraine, maybe through a federal or confederal status, maybe even through two presidents. What I accuse the EU and the NATO of: Until today, no relationship to Russia has been searched or found. This has to change dramatically. Security in Europe is not possible against or without Russia but only with Russia. And if the crisis is overcome one day, one advantage could be that international law is finally recognised by all sides again. Thank you. "

This is actually quite a brilliant crash course on what is happening and why.
 
Last edited:
BBC Breaking News is that Crimean election officials are reporting that 95.5% of voters in the referendum voted in favour of joining Russia with half the ballots in. It's like they can't even be bothered maintaining the pretence that this is a fair referendum.

Maybe you could possibly back up that statement with some facts?

Have you any proof that the vote has been tapered with or as per usual with you,just make nonsense up?
 
I found a good video from German Bundrstag, I see it as balanced and mostly unbiased... Translation is only in text, if you know German you can watch original.


Translation;

13.03.2014, Bundestag, Berlin, Germany.

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXLy0NGW9sM

Gregor Gysi of the german Party "Die Linke" to the situation in Ukraine.
Translation by "iskra".

"The leader of the opposition, Gregor Gysi, will speak now:

Mr. President, ladies and gentlemen. Putin wants to solve the whole crisis in Ukraine militarily. He has not understood that the problems of humanity can neither be solved by soldiers, nor by weapons. On the contrary. Also Russia’s problems cannot be solved this way. His thinking and his actions are wrong and we condemn them explicitly. Yet, it is the same thinking that was and is present in the west for Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Iraq and Lybia. System confrontations were replaced by the opposing interests of the USA and Russia. The Cold War is over, but such opposing interests can lead to very similar traits. The USA want to gain more influence and defend existing influence and Russia wants to gain more influence and defend existing influence. When talking about Russia, I shall only mention Georgia, Syria, Ukraine.

Even when one condemns Putin’s actions, one must also look at how the whole confrontation and intensification came to be. And I shall tell it to you very clearly: Everything that the NATO and the EU could have done wrong, was done wrong.

I begin with Gorbachev in the year 1990. He suggested to form a common European house: Dissolving of the NATO and the Warsaw Pact and finding a common security with Russia. This is what the NATO denied. They said: Dissolving the Warsaw Pact: Yes. The NATO stays… And from the defending alliance was made an interventional alliance. The second error: With the creation of German unity, the US foreign minister and the German foreign minister of the time, Genscher, and other foreign ministers told Gorbachev: No eastwards extension of the NATO will take place. This promise was broken. There was a radical extension of the NATO towards Russia. And the former US foreign minister Robert Gates described the rapid inclusion of the East European states into the NATO as a grave mistake and the attempt of the West to include Ukraine into the NATO as grave provocation - that’s not what I said, this was said by the former US foreign minister! Then, third, the decision was made to station rockets in Poland and the Czech Republic. The Russian government said: This concerns our security interests, we do not want this. The West couldn’t care less and it was done anyway. And finally, the NATO gravely and repeatedly violated international law in the Yugoslavian war. This is meanwhile even confirmed by former German chancellor Schröder. Serbia had not attacked another state and there was no decree of the UN Security Council. And yet, bombs were dropped, and for the first time since 1945 with German involvement. The citizens of Kosovo were allowed to decide for the separation from Serbia in a plebiscite.

Back then, I heavily criticised these violations of international law and I have told you for the case of Kosovo that a Pandora’s Box is being opened. Because if this is allowed in Kosovo, then you must also allow it in other regions. You insulted me. You did not take it seriously. And you did this because you thought you were such victors of the Cold War that all old measures were not applicable to you anymore. I tell you: The Basks ask why they can’t have a plebiscite that asks whether they want to belong to Spain or not. The Catalans ask why they can’t have a plebiscite that asks whether they want to belong to Spain or not. And so do the citizens of Crimea. And through violation of international law, through habitual law, you can create new international law, you know that. Yet, my opinion stands that the detachment of Crimea would be violating international law - as was the detachment of Kosovo.

I knew that Putin would refer to Kosovo and that is just what he did. And now you, Ms. chancellor, tell me that this situation is totally different. [Someone (Ms. Roth?) shouting “It is!”]. Yes, that may be… But you disregard that international law violation is international law violation. My dear Ms. Roth, why don’t you ask a judge if a theft of noble motive is not a theft in comparison to a theft of non-noble motive. He will tell you that it stays a theft. That is the problem! That is the problem! And Mr. Struck has explained a while ago that the Federal Republic of Germany must defend its security at the Hindu Kush. Now Mr. Putin explains Russia must defend its security at Crimea. Germany, by the way, had no fleet at Hindu Kush and was considerably further away. Still I say, both sentences were and are wrong.

Yet, the following holds: When many international law violators blames international law violator Russia to violate international law, this is not particularly effective and trustworthy. That is the fact we are facing. Obama spoke, like you, Ms. chancellor, of the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the nations. But, these two principles were violated in Serbia, Iraq and Lybia. The West thought it could violate international law because the Cold War was over. Chinese and Russian interest were heavily underestimated. You did not take Russia with Yeltsin, who was often even drunk, serious anymore. But the situation changed. Very lately, you now again reference the principles of international law that were established in the Cold War. I am very much in favour of them being valid again, but then for all! This is the only way.

Then there was the tug of war between the EU and Russia with Ukraine in the middle. Both thought and acted the same. Barroso, head of the European Commission, said EITHER customs union with Russia OR contracts with us. He did not say BOTH. Either-or! And Putin said EITHER contracts with us OR the EU. Both thought and acted alternatively in the same way. It was a gigantic mistake from both sides. No EU foreign minister tried to speak to the Russian government while even recognising the rightful security interests of Russia. Russia is afraid that behind the EU, the NATO will enter Ukraine. It feels more and more surrounded. But everyone pulled at Ukraine. The EU and NATO foreign ministers completely ignored the history of Ukraine. They never understood the importance of Crimea to Russia. And Ukrainian society is deeply divided. Also this was not recognised. This deep division already showed in WWII. And it shows today. East Ukraine tends to Russia, West Ukraine tends to western Europe. At this moment, there is no single Ukrainian political figure that could represent both parts of society. That is a sad truth.

And then there is the Council of Europe and the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) which you gravely neglected, Ms. chancellor, Mr. foreign minister. The funding for these organisations was cut more and more in the past because you thought they were not important. Yet they are the only organisations in which both Russia and Ukraine also take part. Thus we must strengthen these organisations and not discuss over Russia’s exclusion. That is completely missing the point.

Then we saw a massive intensification on Maidan. Then we saw snipers and many deaths. There are various rumours. In such situations, people lie a lot. And that is why, in such situations, we propose an international investigation committee. We and the Ukrainians have a right to know what happened there, who is responsible… And I am happy that you support this, Ms. chancellor. On Maidan, there were many democratic forces. But also fascists. The west was directly and indirectly involved. And then foreign minister Steinmeier, the French and Polish foreign minister signed a contract with Janukovych and the opposition. And now you say, Mr. foreign minister, Janukovych dissolved the contract through his fleeing. That is wrong. The people on Maidan rejected this contract with great majority. And you, Mr. foreign minister, also did not advertise for this contract on the site. And only after the rejection, Janukovych left Kiev. Then, parliament had a meeting, and they voted him out of office with 72.88%. Yet, the constitution dictates 75%. Now Mr. Röttgen and others say, well, during a revolution you can’t take the constitution to the letter, what are a few percentiles more or less?… But Putin references this and says there was no constitutional majority to vote him out of office, and refers to documents received from Janukovych. By the way, during the poll, armed soldiers were present. Not very democratic. During the plebiscite in Crimea on Sunday, there will also be armed soldiers. Also not very democratic. Interesting is also that you, Ms. chancellor, say, that such a plebiscite is forbidden by the Ukrainian constitution. So when is the constitution to be upheld, and when not? When electing the president out of office it is not and for the plebiscite in Crimea it is? You should decide whether you accept the constitution as a whole or only in specific cases when you feel like it. The latter is the way I have seen and don’t like.

Then a new government was formed. Directly accepted by president Obama, also by the EU, also from Germany. Ms. Merkel! This government’s vice premier minister, the defence minister, the agricultural minister, the environmental minister, the Attorney General… are fascists! The head of the national security committee was co-founder of the fascist Swoboda party. Fascists have important positions and dominate, for example, the security sector. And never have fascists voluntarily given up power once they had conquered a part of it. At least Germany should have drawn the line here, especially because of our history. When Haider’s FPÖ joined the government in Austra, there were even contact barriers! And with the fascists in Ukraine we do nothing?! Swoboda has close contacts to the NPD and other nazi parties in Europe. The chairman of this party, Olek Tjahnybok, has stated the following. I am going to quote him now. You need to grasp this, what he has said literally: “Grab your weapons. Fight the Russian pigs, the Germans and the Jew swines and others pests”. End of quote. I repeat. This man has said “Grab your weapons. Fight the Russian pigs, the Germans and the Jew swines and others pests”. Attacks on jews and left-wingers are now common and to all this you say nothing? You talk with these Swoboda people? I think this is a scandal. I have to tell you this clearly.

Now you want, as you said, to impose sanctions, if all else fails. But they will not impress Putin. They will only make the situation worse. Kissinger, the former US foreign minister, is right. He says sanctions do not express a strategy but the lack of a strategy. That also holds for the escalating military flights over Poland and the Baltic states: What’s the point? Accounts of Janukovych and his supporters are blocked because they contain stolen state funds. My question: You did not know this? Second question: Why only their accounts? What is with the billions of oligarch money to support others, why aren’t you interfering there? Why is this going so one-sided?

There is only the way of diplomacy! First: The West must recognise the legitimate security interests of Russia on Crimea, which is by the way also how US foreign minister Kerry sees it. We must find a status for Crimea with which Ukraine, Russia and we can live. We have to guarantee Russia that Ukraine will not become a NATO member. Second: The perspective of Ukraine lies in a bridge function between the EU and Russia. Third: A process of understanding between east and west must be initiated in Ukraine, maybe through a federal or confederal status, maybe even through two presidents. What I accuse the EU and the NATO of: Until today, no relationship to Russia has been searched or found. This has to change dramatically. Security in Europe is not possible against or without Russia but only with Russia. And if the crisis is overcome one day, one advantage could be that international law is finally recognised by all sides again. Thank you. "

Very good and I totally agree.
 
Maybe you could possibly back up that statement with some facts?

Have you any proof that the vote has been tapered with or as per usual with you,just make nonsense up?

What those sort of voting numbers do you honestly think the vote isn't rigged? 95.5% of Crimea voting to re-join Russia? Something like 1/4 of the people living in Crimea are Ukranian...
 
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