Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

[No1newts]

but you should be thinking about past western actions as what did Russia do to us? did they sanction us or did they just let us get on with it?

I don't understand your point. Russia did not get involved in the Middle East so it's favour for favour? On you go, take what you like!

only ones playing brinkmanship is the west not the east in this situation.

No.

Invasion and annexing territory when stating on my occasions this was not your intention is brinkmanship and beyond. Sanctions are not.

what exactly do you want us to do?

Already told you that.

and equally what exactly do you want Russia to do the next time the uk gets involved in a military conflict?

That's up to Russia, for all the disagreements on the past wrongs of Western actions they have largely met with international approval or at least not condemnation as in this case. If a nation acts in what is broadly considered an illegal manner I would expect them to be challenged as in this case.

Where, exactly? On the ethnic Russian speaking, Russian settled areas of eastern Ukraine? Does anyone think that they will welcome our troops with open arms and celebrations on the streets? They're more likely to come onto the streets to throw petrol bombs at us.

If you mean the ethnic Ukrainian speaking areas of western Ukraine then I don't believe Putin has any intention of sending troops there anyhow, personally.

Regardless of ethnicity is is sovereign territory of Ukraine. Large parts of southern US are now Latino, can Mexico annex them? Large parts of Bradford are Pakistani, can they be annexed? Not perfect examples but you get my drift.

Ethnicity does not mean you can do as you please and circumvent what is normally followed in the instance of a people wanting to seperately from the country they are part of. Why not negotiate as opposed to getting your neighbour to invade and annex?

At the same time those that got all sanctimonious about the West's actions in the middle east seem to be giving Russia a free pass, it seems the hypocrisy extends to both sides.

Indeed but I don't think the irony will register.

 

[anything I don't mind]

Can you imagine if a world war level war was to kick off in this day and age. ******** would just be filled with masscare videos and everywhere that could be potentially a bombing location would be desolate within a matter of weeks. I know i would be on a plane to panama or costa rica as soon as it started to get serious. In this day and age you would be a fool to think you can defend you country with the military apparatus that we have these days. What are you going to join the infantry?

 

[Andy90]

Pop on a plane and head to Panama or Costa Rica you say?

Good luck with that one. If things did hit the fan and got 'serious' civilian travel would be one of the first things curtailed.

Aircraft would simply be commandeered by the Military and would not be flying you out of the Country.

The Government have a raft of War powers at their disposal if they require them.

 

[Blackjack Davy]

I really can't decide if he's actually going to invade eastern Ukraine, the Crimea may have been taken without a shot being fired but Ukraine proper is a different prospect - does he really want a bloodbath on his hands? On the other hand what happened in Crimea prior to the Russian invasion is also happening in Kharkiv and Donestk right now. And there's the old mantra - to predict Putin all you have to do is be a pessimist. I doubt the EU and USAs response so far has convinced him he can't get away with it anyway.

The Black Sea Fleet is almost certainly the reason he went into Crimea, he didn't want it potentially falling under the influence, real or imagined, of of the West.

But Putin may not want to annexe the other Russian areas of Ukraine never mind Western Ukraine. He won't want Western Ukraine because the people there simply don't want Russian rule and he's opening a whole can of worms of trouble and dissent, not to mention outrage from the West. As for the Eastern half, what Putin most wants is influence over Urkraine: if the western half won't support Russia, then at least he'd like people in charge who are sympathetic to Russia, Yanukovich being a case in point. So he might want the Russian minorities to remain a part of Ukraine in order to have a voice, and and influence, over Ukrainian politics.

Regardless of ethnicity is is sovereign territory of Ukraine. Large parts of southern US are now Latino, can Mexico annex them?

If thats what the people there want, and are prepared to vote for it, why not?

Ethnicity does not mean you can do as you please and circumvent what is normally followed in the instance of a people wanting to seperately from the country they are part of. Why not negotiate as opposed to getting your neighbour to invade and annex?

Now this is what the crux of this situation is about: the West is angered by Russian unilateral military action. Thats it. Regardless of what the people on the ground might want. We're threatening sactions, if not actual war, over a point of principle.

If the West had sent in troops and observers in an election, escorted people to the polling stations, the result would still have been the same, a victory for the Yes to join Russia campaign. So we're really arguing over details.

 

[FoxEye]

Regardless of ethnicity is is sovereign territory of Ukraine. Large parts of southern US are now Latino, can Mexico annex them?

That's funny considering that the US forcibly annexed land from Mexico. First using covert means, then then declaring war on Mexico, before invading and forcing Mexico to sell them California, etc.

I'm just saying, it's funny you should give southern US as an example, given their history

But it's OK, I know the US was just spreading freedom and democracy to Mexican lands...

 

[Blackjack Davy]

That's funny considering that the US forcibly annexed land from Mexico. First using covert means, then then declaring war on Mexico, before invading and forcing Mexico to sell them California, etc.

I'm just saying, it's funny you should give southern US as an example, given their history

But it's OK, I know the US was just spreading freedom and democracy to Mexican lands...

I was just going to say the same thing myself...

most of these areas were annexed by the US during the Mexican wars, as they were Mexican owned but US settled. Talk about irony.

 

[Jono8]

Also...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Grenada

 

[Andy90]

Hawaii was annexed the same way by the US as well.

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if this wasn't part of a deal between the US and Russia and payment for Putin not to intervene in a future invasion of Syria.

Losing Syria without replacement ports giving access to the Med would have been a major blow to Russia. Now he's got unlimited access to Crimea.

 

[anything I don't mind]

Pop on a plane and head to Panama or Costa Rica you say?

Good luck with that one. If things did hit the fan and got 'serious' civilian travel would be one of the first things curtailed.

Aircraft would simply be commandeered by the Military and would not be flying you out of the Country.

The Government have a raft of War powers at their disposal if they require them.

Up until the point that the state closes it down, the airports are going to be very busy. Back in ww2 they did not have airports transporting 1 million in a busy day. Everyone did not own two cars.

 

[v0n]

That's funny considering that the US forcibly annexed land from Mexico.

most of these areas were annexed by the US during the Mexican wars, as they were Mexican owned but US settled. Talk about irony.

Hawaii was annexed the same way by the US as well.

You guys are comparing something that happened in 19th century colonial world vs something that happens today, right now, in 21st century.

This issue can and should be observed as a current affair rather than opportunity to dig up some anecdotal skeletons from closets.

By signing Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances of 1994, Russia guaranteed Ukrainian independence and sovereignty within its existing borders, refraining from the threat or use of force against Ukraine and from using economic pressure on Ukraine in order to influence its politics. Twenty years on Russian forces entered Ukrainian territory in disguise and despite lack of recognition from UN organised putsch and annexed that territory.

Any agreement from, will or vote of people currently residing upon that land might rise sympathy, but in relative terms - it is irrelevant. If not for political and economic reasons, then because under the same circumstances, with unregulated referenda you can annex just about anything to anything. From expats on the coast of Portugal splitting away to join the crown all the way to to micro territories in at least half of the British council estate towns jumping borders several thousand miles to the East.

But things just don't work that way. It isn't two hundred years ago. Basques can't just vote on whether they want their own country back. Germany is not going to pop in one day and organise referendum on Polish Silesia. Poland is not going to ask parts of Belarus how they feel about jumping ship. Spain is not going to send few buses of tourists to suddenly erected voting booths in Gibraltar one weekend. Nobody plays that way anymore. Except mother Russia. The only country in Europe (at least partially) that doesn't understand why not. They've been invading everyone and everything for thousand years, why wouldn't it work this time around.

And all we have to offer is "because if you do, we won't let Abramovich mates to Harrods"? That's a joke. That's laughable. Emergency meeting. Majority vote. White tanks, blue helmets. Engines on. By the morning light secure Crimean peninsula under every UN nation's flag willing to join. Show Vlad The Topless this isn't computer game and starting another Yugoslavia is not on. If you don't, he WILL move on to other regions. He will take Donetsk, he will take Kharkov, he will take Lugansk. And Ukraine will fight back. There will be blood in Europe for years.

 

[Devlish]

I was just going to say the same thing myself...

most of these areas were annexed by the US during the Mexican wars, as they were Mexican owned but US settled. Talk about irony.

Wow yeah and what about that time they stole the land from us brits? We should also probably start thinking about the native indian clans and their rights too! Meanwhile arent we all french? Ironic eh.

 

[Hitman_Leon]

Crimea protesters storm Ukrainian Navy base in Sevastopol

This is just plain stupidity, like the whole 'crisis'

http://rt.com/news/crimea-navy-base-storm-746/

 

[scorza]

This is just plain stupidity, like the whole 'crisis'

http://rt.com/news/crimea-navy-base-storm-746/

By protestors, I guess they mean Russian soldiers.

 

[GAC]

You guys are comparing something that happened in 19th century colonial world vs something that happens today, right now, in 21st century.

but wheres the fun in that. people have to make their point anyway they can and if that means saying we did x y and z (all under different leadership) be it 10, 20 or 100 years ago so be it.

 

[Rofflay]

Its not stupid at all its just history. A country is defined by the populations loyalty and ethnic ties not the land. Look around the world and watch as nearly every modern country was partially formed by the same methods of mass immigration.

If Russia was allowed to push mass amounts of ethnic russians into the former soviet blocks thats too bad and game over for whoever formally owned those territories. Its the same with Scotland if they decide to go and Ireland was halved in the same fashion. There is lots of tears and spilled milk all over the world about these issues this is why i oppose bitterly open immigration within the EU. Immigration will see future Crimea's pop up maybe even within the EU if immigration continues. If you let them multiply enough and they feel alienated from the rulers of that land you can be sure its only a matter of time and numbers until they declare themselves independant.

And when the world press get involved you cant lay a finger on em. Its retarded to stop wars you have to stop the movements and clash of people.

 

[Domo]

I agree but instead they bend over, pull their pants down round their ankles and wave their behind infront of Putin?

Stick troops on the ground. No one wants war, Russia has seized the initiative by getting their first and knowing no one will escalate. Put troops there and the ball is once again in Russia's court as they don't want to push things to the brink either.

That's a dangerous game you're suggesting there. You sound like a politician, in so much as they also appear to have little regard for the consequence of certain actions. So going on what you've said, say the ball is in Russia's court, only they serve it back with vigor. Now what? I think Russia are less concerned about bring this crisis to critical mass than the west are.

What I'm trying to say is, I can't see Putin ever conceding or backing down. Therefore getting into an escalating tit-for-tat exchange involving sanctions and eventually military movements is never going to bode well for the west (or anyone).

Personally, for the time being let them have Crimea. They held a referendum and it appears to be what the people want. I'd hedge a bet the western politicians are willing to let that happen. But if Putin bites a chunk out of Ukraine then I think potentially we're all in trouble.

Always seems weird to me what people are wiling to sacrifice or jeopardise in these situations while we've sat back and witnessed it happening with the likes of Israel and done nothing.

 

[Hitman_Leon]

Its not stupid at all its just history.

I was not coming from that angle.

I actually agree that Crimea has the right to join Russia if it so wishes, it was all done in the wrong way. First the west meddles in the Ukraine and then Russia takes up the gauntlet and plays them at their own game. Now the whole situation is fubar and could just get more so with very little reason this could get very nasty very quickly.

 

[ubersonic]

Some countries, but not us

Germany needs gas because it's shutting down it's nuclear reactors and becoming dependant on gas and French (nuclear) energy imports to meet its needs along with it's domestic production. If the gas goes off then Germany will need more French energy as will France. We also get power from the French nuclear grid (until recently more than we get from all our turbines combined) and so supply and demand would see our energy prices rise.

Technically we didn't 'invade' Libya, we just assisted the rebels in getting rid of Ghadaffi.

You could say that, but you could also say that we acted as their air force and basically won their civil war for them (it's pretty easy to push forwards when you have bombers flying ahead annihilating almost all opposition).

I say won loosely of course because since then the country's puppet government has lost control and the country has descended into tribal warfare without Gadaffi. Last week the "official" government threatened to air strike an oil tanker docked at a oil port held by another faction lol.

Force attacks a government we like - rebels, force attacks a government we don't like - rebels.

Fixed: Force attacks a government we like - insurgents/terrorists. Force attacks a government we don't like - protesters.

Heard on the news tonight that Putin stated two weeks ago that he would not annex Crimea, today he did.

Technically speaking he didn't do it, it applied to join Russia, no (official ) action on his part took place.

Think of it like, he didn't take the snickers, a crooked shop assistant gave it to him, but either way he has the snickers.

The one you missed was Moldova, there's already a semi-autonomous region of ethnic Russians there, however as it doesn't border Russia (it borders Ukraine mostly) I'm not sure what Russia can realistically do there.

Moldova is part of the Commonwealth of Independent States, Russia's equivalent of the EU, I doubt their going to attack an ally like that as the other CIS members wouldn't take too kindly to it (Georgia was also a member at the time of the South Ossetia war but as they were the aggressor the other member states were in favour of Russian intervention).

 

[Zethor]

That's a dangerous game you're suggesting there. You sound like a politician, in so much as they also appear to have little regard for the consequence of certain actions. So going on what you've said, say the ball is in Russia's court, only they serve it back with vigor. Now what? I think Russia are less concerned about bring this crisis to critical mass than the west are.

What I'm trying to say is, I can't see Putin ever conceding or backing down. Therefore getting into an escalating tit-for-tat exchange involving sanctions and eventually military movements is never going to bode well for the west (or anyone).

Personally, for the time being let them have Crimea. They held a referendum and it appears to be what the people want. I'd hedge a bet the western politicians are willing to let that happen. But if Putin bites a chunk out of Ukraine then I think potentially we're all in trouble.

Always seems weird to me what people are wiling to sacrifice or jeopardise in these situations while we've sat back and witnessed it happening with the likes of Israel and done nothing.

No, the West can't just let Putin "have it" because the last time this happened in Europe it was followed by WW2. The West needs to do two things:
1. Stick together. The US and the EU need to act in unison and strictly respect the sanctions that get implemented.
2. Banks, not tanks. Russia has a very small economy, compared to its size and population, and it's dependant on exports of natural resources. Crimeea is probably lost for the time being but the West can make the cost of this annexation reach levels Putin doesn't even dream of.

There's a surge of nationalism and superpower nostalgia in Russia at the moment and there's no telling how it will evolve if the West decides to bury its head in the sand and pretend nothing's happening.

 

[DailyGeek]

Do I need to start stockpiling beans,potassium iodide and taking my doors off their hinges?