Bakers refuse Gay wedding cake - update: Supreme Court rules in favour of Bakers

dowie · 9 Jul 2014 at 23:49

estebanrey said:
Of course it should matter. "Sorry but I can't make the cake you want today because we've run out of brown icing but can provide it in a couple of days time" is massively different to "Sorry but I refuse to make a cake that depicts ethnic minorities on it".

No the reasons for refusing to support a political stance shouldn't matter...

How is making a cake 'supporting a stance'? It's just fulfilling an order. Would the bakery turn down a cake that said "Liverpool Will Win The League This Year" if the owner thought it was unlikely, of course they wouldn't.

the same way that agreeing to print BNP leaflets supports a stance... if you're fundamentally opposed to the view then you'll likely want to disassociate yourself from it and not support it by helping to add to any campaign whether that be by refusing leaflets or refusing to bake a simple cake with a political message

But a newspaper can't refuse to take an advert if by doing so they are discriminating against a protected group.

they'd likely only be doing that if they refused to take an advert based on who the person requesting the advert was rather than based on the content of the advert... a newspaper should have complete freedom to refuse any content it simply doesn't agree with/that conflicts with its editorial stance etc... in the US this is protected by the 1st amendment...

likewise the baker is denying certain content - he's not denying a cake in general to any group... I'm sure the customer could drop the suit and go back and buy a cake..

dowie · 9 Jul 2014 at 23:52

estebanrey said:
But the Bible doesn't say that.

it doesn't matter if it does or not

RDM · 10 Jul 2014 at 00:02

dowie said:
no it isn't - its message supporting a view, political stance, campaign

lots of people from a particular group and from other groups support it... its a campaign that affects a particular group - its still a view/stance

Again, the Equality Commission disagrees. Though I was actually arguing against the sssertion that it isn't discriminatory if the person placing the order isn't part of the protected group.

RDM · 10 Jul 2014 at 00:08

dowie said:
well yes obviously they do - but are they always right? We'll have to see what happens... I really hope it doesn't succeed.

No idea, I don't know the Equality Commissions track record.

dowie said:
they considered the order carefully then contacted the customer to refuse it and refund them I think they've likely been tactful when doing so

Alas we don't know because we only have one side of the story and they may not being entirely honest.

dowie said:
I'm not interested in denying gays marriage rights... but that's completely irrelevant to the thread - I don't have to justify some other person's opinion to say that I support their right to have that opinion. Maybe its simply because their Jesus book says marriage is between man and woman and they think therefore Gay people should have a similar arrangement but called something else... who knows - it doesn't matter really... they have views/beliefs and shouldn't be forced to support other views/beliefs they're opposed to.

At no point have I said that they are not entitled to their opinion. They may not however be always able to operate their business in line with that opinion because of our anti discrimination laws.

Castiel · 10 Jul 2014 at 00:42

RDM said:
No idea, I don't know the Equality Commissions track record.

Given that it's the ECNI, it has a colourful history especially as it is often accused of bias against Protestant groups.

RDM · 10 Jul 2014 at 00:58

Castiel said:
Given that it's the ECNI, it has a colourful history especially as it is often accused of bias against Protestant groups.

Coming from that part of the world originally you basically just have to say that maybe not all Catholics are evil before being accused of bias against Protestant groups!

I still have no idea why the Protestant community thinks the parades are a good idea when the are effectively just two fingers up to the Catholic community.

RDM · 10 Jul 2014 at 01:14

There is an additional wrinkle in this case because it is in Northern Ireland.

Their discrimination laws are slightly different to ours and actually have a law against discriminating against political opinion including in the provision of goods and services.

http://www.equalityni.org/ECNI/medi...ndividuals/ReligiousDiscrimShortGuide2010.pdf

Tefal · 10 Jul 2014 at 01:50

How different would this thread be if it was

"Muslim Pakistani immigrant shop owner refuses to serve man because he was a white christian!!"

I reckon ity would be very very differnt

FoxEye · 10 Jul 2014 at 02:37

Tefal said:
How different would this thread be if it was

"Muslim Pakistani immigrant shop owner refuses to serve man because he was a white christian!!"

I reckon ity would be very very differnt

It would be a different thread because what actually happened and what you're suggesting are totally different. They're not even similar.

spoffle · 10 Jul 2014 at 03:01

dirtychinchilla said:
That's because it's retarted.

Tefal · 10 Jul 2014 at 03:51

FoxEye said:
It would be a different thread because what actually happened and what you're suggesting are totally different. They're not even similar.

refusal to serve based on religious beliefs.

tbyeah · 10 Jul 2014 at 04:16

Imagine a different scenario.

A baker refuses to put on a cake, a black groom and a white bride, or vice versa.

Is this acceptable?

Castiel · 10 Jul 2014 at 05:11

tbyeah said:
Imagine a different scenario.

A baker refuses to put on a cake, a black groom and a white bride, or vice versa.

Is this acceptable?

who cares, like you said its a totally different scenario to what actually happened.

Tefal · 10 Jul 2014 at 05:32

Castiel said:
who cares, like you said its a totally different scenario to what actually happened.

how exactly is it different?

one chooses their sexuality no more than they choose their race.

one only chooses their prejudices.

spoffle · 10 Jul 2014 at 05:36

Tefal said:
how exactly is it different?

one chooses their sexuality no more than they choose their race.

one only chooses their prejudices.

Because they're refusing to put a political message on the cake?

Tefal · 10 Jul 2014 at 05:38

spoffle said:
Because they're refusing to put a political message on the cake?

and interracial marriage is not a political issue? :confused:

(it most certainly was in the past)

what is the difference between gay marriage and interracial marriage in this situation?

(and we'll ignore what rdm posted that the exact thing you just said is illegal in NI if you like)

spoffle · 10 Jul 2014 at 05:41

Sure, it might have been an issue, but now it isn't.

Ultimately, I'm quite ambivalent to the situation, I think both parties should just shut up and stop whinging, because effectively it's two parties moaning that the other won't accept their views or beliefs.

I hadn't noticed RDM's post, so my response wasn't taking what he said in to account, and I agree looking back at it it certainly does change things. It doesn't change my views on it as such as I still think the above, but from a legal perspective it does change the situation.

Tefal · 10 Jul 2014 at 05:45

spoffle said:
Sure, it might have been an issue, but now it isn't.

Ultimately, I'm quite ambivalent to the situation, I think both parties should just shut up and stop whinging, because effectively it's two parties moaning that the other won't accept their views or beliefs.

interesting, so your entire argument hinges on the fact that people decided that racism wasn't acceptable anymore and fought for decades to get the situation changed?

yet your response to this is **** it why help do the same again with homophobia?

spoffle · 10 Jul 2014 at 05:55

Tefal said:
interesting, so your entire argument hinges on the fact that people decided that racism wasn't acceptable anymore and fought for decades to get the situation changed?

yet your response to this is **** it why help do the same again with homophobia?

Not really no, I'm mixed race, I've had people attempt to be racist towards me. It's never bothered me, and has bothered my girlfriend significantly more (who is white) when she's seen it herself.

It's just that when we're arguing/debating the awfulness of a business not wanting to bake a cake with a "gay" reference on it, because it isn't inline with their beliefs, I think it's pretty good going. They have the option to not bake the cake, the others have the option to go elsewhere, and if I was in such a situation, I would go elsewhere. Not to say I wouldn't try and deride them for their views, as it's pretty hard to back up racist views with "but my religion", but it'd be for my own amusing more than because I was feeling hurt or anything.

I'm not even saying people shouldn't be upset or offended by people treating them this way, I'm just outlining my views on the situation and how I would deal with it.

Castiel · 10 Jul 2014 at 08:05

Tefal said:
how exactly is it different?

one chooses their sexuality no more than they choose their race.

one only chooses their prejudices.

Again, it isn't about the persons sexuality, but about the political
Slogan on the cake. Same sex marriage is illegal in Northern Ireland and I think people are forgetting or don't realise that.