And to some people that *is* a bad thing in the same way others(most people) see the BNP as a bad thing... which shouldn't matter though. People can refuse to support whatever stance/issues they're not comfortable with.
Bakers refuse Gay wedding cake - update: Supreme Court rules in favour of Bakers
- Thread starter dowie
- Start date
And to some people that *is* a bad thing in the same way others(most people) see the BNP as a bad thing... which shouldn't matter though. People can refuse to support whatever stance/issues they're not comfortable with.
Quite. This isn't about the sexuality of the person(s) ordering the cake, it is solely about disagreeing with the political issue it was designed to support. There is nothing inherently homophobic in not supporting Gay Marriage, despite what activists would like us to believe.
Not really sure on the relevance of this post as I didn't mention you having to be gay to support gay marriage (which I wouldn't as I do and aren't) nor that homosexuals all support gay marriage. I just said that it was an issue involving a protected group.
As I also said earlier I would like to see a little more information as currently we only have one side of the issue.
Good on you. I never said you did.
Man of Honour
You as an individual have the freedom to say such things provided you don't run over the normal boundaries regarding freedom of speech nor inciting hatred. You may hold views and express them, others may judge you for the views you hold - freedom of expression is not freedom from consequence as the aphorism goes. However as a business you would not have the right to discriminate based on a persons sexual orientation.
It's worth remembering that wrong is purely a subjective judgement in this case, objectively it's difficult to make an argument that people being gay causes harm to the World nor indeed that it's something that should provide any reason for discrimination.
But they're not allowed to discriminate against people based on certain grounds such as race, religion or sexual orientation. That choice has been removed from businesses. You can argue the rights and wrongs of the approach but from the limited information available there appears to be enough merit in the case for the Equality Commission to get involved.
Perhaps the case to be made is that this is in a slightly grey area where politics and sexual orientation mix (with a side of religion in there for good measure) but by refusing to make the cake with the slogan I'd suggest it's edging over the line into discrimination. However on a purely practical level there were apparently other bakers perfectly willing and able to make the requisite cake so how fair is it to impose on this particular bakers? Albeit that they're the ones who are courting the publicity.
Soldato
I really fail to comprehend why accepting a gay message on a cake is a political issue. I guess I'm thinking from a position here of "gay people are normal" and am way past any political discussion.
I understand why they wouldn't put a political message on a cake when they didn't agree with it; I certainly wouldn't make a "Israel are really nice people, not ***** at all" cake...but Israel choose to be *****.
I understand why they wouldn't put a political message on a cake when they didn't agree with it; I certainly wouldn't make a "Israel are really nice people, not ***** at all" cake...but Israel choose to be *****.
Their business isn't though.
I have yet to hear a reasoned argument as to why denying equal marriage rights to gay people isn't a bad thing though.
Soldato
Dat forum.
Permabanned
Make your own gay cake, wtf.
Soldato
That's because it's retarted.
Soldato
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Which is a homophobic position in disguise of being a 'traditional/conservative' one.
The definition of marriage has changed endlessly over the years. Polygamous marriages were recognised in the tax system in the UK up to 1987, divorce wasn't allowed until Henry VIII came along (and not legally possible for most people up until 1969), and there was a time where only Christian and Catholic unions were recognised.
Do Ashers make cakes for people re-marrying? I suspect so, so they have no right to claim there objection is based on a 'traditional' view of the concept.
a sole trader is acting on his own behalf - he is the business
if someone forms a company then that company is a person - it can sue, it can be sued etc.. it can have an official stance on a range of issues.
its completely irrelevant though whether you believe it is bad or good or whether most people believe it is bad or good... people are free to agree/disagree with that stance. Freedom of speech doesn't require that your views are rational nor that you get majority consensus for your views... that kind of defeats the whole principle.
Permabanned
If i contact a cake company and i ask them to make me a cake that they don't want to make then that is their choice. Doesn't matter why they don't want to make the cake, they can't be forced to make a cake. It just the way it works. If you start forcing people to make cakes that they don't want to make, then where do you draw the line. The choice of what cakes to make has to be on the cake makers not the cake buyers.
Because it was a slogan which said "support gay marriage"...not a gay message to someone... Gay marriage is a political issue, you need not be homophobic to disagree with it or not want to support it, you need not think that gay people are not normal or should not be served with cake...only that the owner of the bakery does not support gay marriage and did not want to compromise that position. It's like forcing someone to write slogans supporting Scottish Independence when they are staunch unionists.
they can claim its based on anything they like - the justification is irrelevant, its their view and that's all that matters - freedom of speech doesn't require justification for views you chose to express or not express
Man of Honour
The fact that a business has a legal identity doesn't change the point that businesses are not allowed to discriminate based on select protected criteria. Incidentally while a sole trader will act on their businesses behalf they can also have private views as an individual - they can be separate entities in this regard.
Soldato
Of course you don't need to be homophobic not to support gay marriage, but if you do not support it, you support inequality. Once again, I appreciate that they do not agree with the slogan, but Scottish independence is not a discrimination issue, whereas this is.
But, as a company, it has to abide by different laws in certain circumstances. The anti discrimination laws apply to businesses not people. As long as I am not inciting hatred I can be as homophobic as I like, I can't however run a business in a homophobic manner.
And I can disagree with their stance and challenge it. Objectively I just cannot see the harm in gay marriage rights.
If you do support the legislation in its current form you still support inequality, as civil partnerships are still reserved for homosexuals and no one else. Not agreeing with gay marriage doesn't make you a bigot or guilty of discrimination.
I didn't say they could - I said they could take a stance on issues
they're not discriminating against which people they're serving they're choosing what work they will take on
Soldato
I support the current legislation in the respect that it is a step closer to equality, and the best thing we have at the moment. I think the fact that it requires legislation is insane, and I can't wait for my generation to be the ones in power so that this baseless persecution can end, because I can't see it happening whilst any debate still exists as to the rights of gay people.