** Star Wars Episode VII - SPOILERS WITHIN **

I haven't mentioned content as such. Like I said, changing the story arc and what happens to certain characters etc is cool.

Changing the basic rules that have been established in what is still considered canon (the movies) and have been fleshed out in the certain EU material (which were also considered canon up until this film) that have followed those same rules is poor form and only done to oversimplify and make it easier to tell a lazy story.

Of course, Disney can do what the hell they like. It doesn't mean that I have to make excuses for it though.
 
What rules have they changed? Is there anything that has remained within the canon universe that extends beyond the end of Episode 6 other than this new film? Rebels is set between 3 and 4 isnt it? The three spinoff movies are all set before or around the original trilogy too, aren't they?
 
The stuff that I've already mentioned regarding force users.

I don't know anything Rebels or other stuff extending beyond Ep 6.
Like I say, it's not about storyline changes to things in the EU.

It's about randomly doing things out of the blue just because.
 
Yeah I know what your saying. You initially tried to claim it was in contradiction to material that is now non canon, but while that sucks for those invested in the EU, I think we both agree that that's that, and its just how Disney are playing it.

I've not seen any of the Clone Wars or Rebels or read any of the EU, so my knowledge is limited to how it all fits (or doesn't) together. In canon we have the prequel films, the Clone Wars, Rebels, the original trilogy, and then 40 years later, Episode 7. And if you look at it like this then there isn't really anything that defines what Rey did as "wrong", its just not something that has any precedence in the now much more streamlined canon universe. In that universe, theres been almost no Force users for ~70 years. From the point that Luke was born, weve seen Vader, Sidious, Luke, Yoda and Obi Wan prior to Episode 7. The "established Jedi ways" died out decades ago.
 
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I still claim it's in contradiction to what is now non-canon, but I've also made the point that that non-canon stuff is essentially just a fleshing out of what was in the films, which is canon.
Note that I'm talking purely about force stuff/training etc.

Like I say, demonstrating raw abilities with no guidance is fine and has been shown in previous films as well as the books.
Sitting there twiddling your thumbs and then suddenly attempting a force persuade is just a bit wtf.
 
Without supporting context, I agree. Even with the defence that Stormtroopers, brainwashed soldiers designed to take orders, are probably the easiest of people to persuade, its still a leap.

But my point is that they have removed most of the supporting material that makes this seem particularly wtf (as most people will be unaware of it anyway) and we are only 1/3rd of the way into this part of the story, so for the moment we have just got unanswered questions rather than concrete plot holes.

As I said early on in this thread, if we get to the end of Episode 9 and the stance is litterallly that Rey came from nothing and one day decided to be a Jedi and had all the skills, I'll be first inline to slap the writers round the face.

Basically, having no knowledge of the EU, Reys abilities don't make me think "that's impossible!", they make me ask "how come she can do that?".
 
Yeah, that's fair enough up to a point.

Yes, it does leave unanswered questions that naturally lead us to the whole 'she was one of Luke's students that escaped Kylo's wrath and has therefore had some form of training in the past'.
The problem is, that while I don't expect literally everything to be explained in the first installment of a trilogy, that particular scene/aspect is very poorly put together and just leads to a general wtf vibe and then people having to come up with all kinds of theories to explain it.

Who knows, maybe there was a bit more exposition that explained it and was then cut due to it revealing a bit too much about her origins or why she suddenly thought of doing that.

ED: And if that was the case, then it would've also helped a long way toward explaining her then going on to force grab the lightsaber.
 
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There's probably a pacing element too it. A lot of people won't mind that she used some Force powers, so there was no need to spend time explaining it yet. No new Star Wars fans are going to think it's out of the nom, the people picking up on this stuff is the long term fans, especially those invested in the EU.

I have a lot of unanswered questions from Episode 7. I can see how some people will take more of an exception to them than being happy to wait for answers.
 
Shamikebab said:
Sith apprentice scheme? So you think Palpatine did a lot of classes with Vader on how to use Force Lightning? Please.

The simple answer is we don't know. At no point do we see training actually happen. How often do you see Obi Wan teaching Anakin how to use the force? Most of his training seems to be moral training on how to deal with the different challenges facing a jedi, from resolving diplomatic conflicts and the like.
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Actually yes, read the first of the Darth Vader collection. Palpatine was teaching Vader techniques. I don't want to ruin the book for anyone but Vader had to fight other apprentices that were taught for years as the Emp was looking to replace him. Palpatine even mentions teaching Anakin methods. I haven't finished lords of the sith yet if that mentions further training.

Quite clearly some form of apprenticeship and learning of techniques as shown training padawans in the clone war series. Also even Obi Wan and Yoda are taught new methods. Yoda mentions how he will teach Obi Wan how to talk to Qui Gon.

Ventress teaches Master Quinlon Vos darkside techniques in Dark Disciple. She talks about her training under Dooku.

Luke leaves before finishing his "training", quite clearly the universe is set up to learn these techniques from a young age as both Anakin and then Luke where too old to begin training. Vader tells Luke he will complete his training.

Anyway I'm too far from worrying about how Rey has tapped in so fast, if it's not better explained later I will be annoyed but I'm two years off worrying that loophole I'm sure will be closed. :)
 
All this picking apart of what is enesstaily a bunch of kids films.

I never see this sort of discussion with harry potter films.

Enjoy it for what it is or move on people
 
Uncle Petey said:
Yeah, that's fair enough up to a point.

Yes, it does leave unanswered questions that naturally lead us to the whole 'she was one of Luke's students that escaped Kylo's wrath and has therefore had some form of training in the past'.
The problem is, that while I don't expect literally everything to be explained in the first installment of a trilogy, that particular scene/aspect is very poorly put together and just leads to a general wtf vibe and then people having to come up with all kinds of theories to explain it.

Who knows, maybe there was a bit more exposition that explained it and was then cut due to it revealing a bit too much about her origins or why she suddenly thought of doing that.

ED: And if that was the case, then it would've also helped a long way toward explaining her then going on to force grab the lightsaber.
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I don't think a lot of the stuff discussed will be explained TBH in EP8 ...TFA wants the audience to just accept stuff without explanation.

The obvious stuff with Luke will drive the narrative in the next movie but the fluff we want answers for will be swept under the carpet...

TFA requires a leap of faith , but unless you are willing to just soak it up the niggles will ruin it for old school fans.

But it's clear Disney don't care about that...they just want to drive the machine forward...they've popped in the old characters as a token gesture tick box and will now create what they want...the rules have changed.
 
Saw it yesterday.

Was alright, don't care much for if's, buts, and why's. Very much what I expected from director JJ, did a better job with the trek for me.

Daisy Ridley by far the star of the show, fantastic character. The rest aside from the great Harrison Ford (loving every minute of it) and that first order officer guy were complete planks. You could have fed for a month on the cheese coming out of the mouths of most of the characters, Boyega being the worst offender, Poe, Ren not far behind.

Im sure Lucas Said they completely cut him out:)
 
I guess whether stuff will be explained remains to be seen :)

_Jimlad_ said:
All this picking apart of what is enesstaily a bunch of kids films.

I never see this sort of discussion with harry potter films.

Enjoy it for what it is or move on people
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Aaaand we're back to the it's just a kid's film argument and therefore doesn't have to make sense.

The thing with Harry Potter is that it makes sense based on the rules that have been created for it.
Also, having issues with certain aspects doesn't mean that no enjoyment was had.

ED: I don't know why there's a sad smilie on this post btw.
 
Uncle Petey said:
I guess whether stuff will be explained remains to be seen :)



Aaaand we're back to the it's just a kid's film argument and therefore doesn't have to make sense.

The thing with Harry Potter is that it makes sense based on the rules that have been created for it.
Also, having issues with certain aspects doesn't mean that no enjoyment was had.
Click to expand...

I'll probably watch the first 20 mins again then fast forward to the BB8 bits :p
 
I agree with Petey that it wasn't that well put together. I think maybe they deleteted a flashback scene when Kylo was probing her memory which may have been removed as it revelead too much as you say. I also think that the scene when she touches the lightsaber wasn't necessarily just a flashback but visions of the future too. So maybe she had a vision of her using the force powers in the possibly deleted scene.

In the end though i feel any plot contention involving Rey should be saved until the end of the trilogy as she's clearly been written with 3 films in mind. Does it harm the Force Awakens for some people? Sure, but I'm personally willing to look past that for now.
 
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