Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (March Poll)
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Soldato
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Soldato
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What's good for British scientists might not necessarily be good for British science. There's no reason to assume that funding for scientific research in the UK would drop if we left the EU. Under our current EU arrangements with the EU, we give them a lot of money, they give us a bit back in the rebate, then spend a fraction of the rest in the UK. If we left the EU, we wouldn't have to give them as much money, and the savings could be used to fund more scientific research in the UK than currently happens. Times have changes since before the EU, the value of scientific research is understood.
You literately have no clue on what is at stake for the scientific community if we left the EU. Though a huge amount is funded by the EU, that can be filled from our ever shrinking pockets.
Myself, My sister and my brother have done or are doing research in Physics and leaving the EU would be more devastating to British science than cutting the funding by half. We would lose our placing as one of the countries leading the world in science within decades.
Most of our research teams here have a large portion made up of people from the rest of Europe who got grants to study here and eventually joined teams after graduating. We don't output all that many Physicists any more and our teams need researchers and students from outside of the UK.
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Soldato
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His point is valid if you pre-suppose that the UK would spite itself with a complete ban on movement with the EU. Given that approximately 1.2 million Brits live in the EU I would assume that we will have some form of bilateral movement arrangement with the EU under even the worst WTO only trade agreement. Whilst Stephen Hawking is deserving of my respect I am not sure I share his presumption on the outcome of a Brexit.
What's good for British scientists might not necessarily be good for British science
As has been pointed out the argument put forth is not about funding. Science is a highly international and collaborative affair, and freedom of movement within the EU and EU wide funding programmes are beneficial in helping nurture and support collaboration. Simply having the same money does not garner the same benefits.
Also, the idea that leaving the EU will "free up money" is a myth. Yes, we're net investors in the EU but if we leave the EU we will need to replicate many of the functions that the EU carries out, it is likely that doing so will cost us more money than we currently put in. Moreover, the majority of economists agree that Brexit would damage the UK economy and the loss of GDP will mean we have less money to spend on science.
The UK spends well below the OECD average on science; and Osborne has restricted science spending further. The UK does not have a good record for investing in science.
We can't say either way if there's going to be a free movement deal, or a decent trade deal. Half the reason most outers want to out it's the free movement.
I just can't vote out and hope for the best. Too much it's at stake.
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Even if we got free movement
What about funding from foreign students?
EU students will be treated the same as oversea students of we left the EU, with the same fees and funding options. Who will make up our research teams?
What about funding from foreign students?
EU students will be treated the same as oversea students of we left the EU, with the same fees and funding options. Who will make up our research teams?
So again you're relying on this straw man that if we left the EU, all EU migration would stop immediately. It wouldn't. Under the skill points based system I favour then it would be fairly easy to ensure scientists get to the top of the list if that's what our government decides that is what we need.
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A lot of scaremongering from both sides.
The main out campaign is based upon the fear of immigration rather than benefits of trade.
Do those figures include our spending on science that we get back from the EU? The bottom line is we put into the EU much less than we get back.
Didn't realise you will be immigration minister post brexit.
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I am assuming if we left the EU, we would treat eu students the same as other overseas students. Most simply will not be able to afford to study and then go onto join our teams. This is true. Call it anecdotal but my experience counts for a lot when the scientific community is not all that big.
You are counting on the government funding not only the the research currently funded by the EU, but also paying and setting incentives for scientists to come here and join the teams?
The UK has been neglecting science for years. Every year the proportion of students which take physics is shrinking. There will be very little doubt within the community that if we left, no matter what the government promises, we will lose out as far as science is concerned. The government couldn't fill the gap no matter what priority they put on science.
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Soldato
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I forget, is is Clause 50 of the Treaty of Rome that states the process for leaving? Part of which is a 2 year negotiation for the post EU relationship between the seceding state and the remnant EU. I would expect that that period of negotiation would be conducted in a manner whereby the UK Government does not chose to spite itself by failing to resolve some of the concerns raised.
I acknowledge, as I have done so before, that a post EU relationship for the UK would recreate many of the treaty arrangements that exist between the Uk and the rest of the EU now. It is in both our and their interst to do so. The difference would be that we could allow to lapse or enact get out clauses on those individual treaties as and when it was felt to be in Britains best interest by the Government of the day. A Remain vote is a defacto acknowledgement that the UK no longer has the will to Govern itself and forfiets that ability going forward. The re-negotiation explcitly says we will not stand in the way of further Euro integration, which at some point will no doubt come at a cost to the UK. Recent examples of the Euro region transaction tax becoming an EU vehicle despite our veto or the bankers bonus ban against our wishes demonstrates the EU's willingness to accomodate UK needs. Although it has always been implicit that the EEC/EC/EU would not act against members startegic interests, except where its the UK's strategic interests it would seem.
I acknowledge, as I have done so before, that a post EU relationship for the UK would recreate many of the treaty arrangements that exist between the Uk and the rest of the EU now. It is in both our and their interst to do so. The difference would be that we could allow to lapse or enact get out clauses on those individual treaties as and when it was felt to be in Britains best interest by the Government of the day. A Remain vote is a defacto acknowledgement that the UK no longer has the will to Govern itself and forfiets that ability going forward. The re-negotiation explcitly says we will not stand in the way of further Euro integration, which at some point will no doubt come at a cost to the UK. Recent examples of the Euro region transaction tax becoming an EU vehicle despite our veto or the bankers bonus ban against our wishes demonstrates the EU's willingness to accomodate UK needs. Although it has always been implicit that the EEC/EC/EU would not act against members startegic interests, except where its the UK's strategic interests it would seem.
![[TW]Fox](/data/man-of-honor/2009.png){kind=avatar}
We don't have a skills based points system and there is no formal plan in place to give us one. Outside of EU migration we have some of the toughest visa requirements in the world - it is far easier to get into Australia, the poster child of the anti immigration crowd - legally than it is the UK.
Well there's one thing for sure...
If the vote goes against us Outers we carry on as normal whinging about the EU
If it goes against the Remainians they will have to ...
Diversifyor Die
Metaphorically speaking !!
If the vote goes against us Outers we carry on as normal whinging about the EU
If it goes against the Remainians they will have to ...
Diversifyor Die
Metaphorically speaking !!
That's an interesting point about the 'extra money' we will have, or not, if we weren't paying into the EU..
You must have accidently missed answering it Scorza, have you got anything to refute this?
[TW]Fox;29266664 said:
I know, hence I pointed out that it was the system I favoured, not the one which would be implemented if we vote to Leave. I'm not really bothered about how difficult it is or isn't to get into Australia - they're able to control set their own immigration policy and their system seems to work for them. We need to reduce net migration to the UK to the historical norm of 50,000, we can't go on absorbing an additional population the size of a city like Cardiff every year - it's unsustainable. It's only going to get worse as the EU expands eastwards, including to Turkey.
So it's irrelevant!
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