Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (June Poll)

[Caged]

Remain camp - George Osborne knows more about curry/curry houses voting preferences than.....Britain's curry houses.....

Sounds about right from the remain camp.

The disliking Osborne camp is a pretty huge one. I posted the video because it's funny and related to the curry chef argument, not because I hold Osborne's position.

The problem you have with arguing that EU membership causes us to unfairly apply immigration policy to people based on their origin (which is true), is that's not the reason people want out. They just want less immigration. So the curry chefs hoping that they can bring in more Bangladeshi's post-Brexit are likely to be disappointed.

 

[Skunkworks]

Who's to say that we can attract the best if we're outside of the EU?

Imagine that you're a top European engineer and you've had offers from Germany and a UK outside the EU (and EEA). Maybe the deciding factor for you will be how easy it will be for your family to join you.

Leaving will reduce immigration now it's convenient to your argument?

 

[Six6siX]

google basic payment scheme, it slightly different in each region of the UK (and Europe) . Basically the want us all moved to a flat rate per hectare by 2019, then it will be reviewed again (starting in 2017 ) as the pool of money will be the same or less, and there more land from the east Europe country able to get the full rate, it will go down, they have stated that over time it will go away.

as for the red tape (and again it different for NI) due to the troubles we have a very high ratio of people working for Daera (our minster of argi) to farmers, a large number of them do nothing but process the red tape, and again the legacy of the troubles a lot of these jobs are in areas that are hotly contested in elections , so no party is going to lay off people if it looses them a seat, so they need as much red tape as possible, and in the current system if we fail to supply them with all the forms we to fill in we be financial penalized.

if we leave the subs will go because (and correctly so) how could any government stand up in front of it people and go " yes we know the NHS is near bankrupt and our schools are falling down due to lack of money but don't worry we giving 300 million to the farmers" there would be riots

Thanks for the explanation - like I say, I don't know much about the industry so I'm looking at this from an entirely different perspective so bear with me

All the information I can find suggests that the change to flat rate will actually benefit the majority of famers; a few will be worse off by the look of things (although the circumstances of this scenario are unclear from the brief research I've done), but the benefit remains overall. It does seem to be different per region and the rationale behind it appears to make sense on the surface of it. I can't see anything that suggests the subsidies are to be removed altogether though - can you provide a source for this?

Surely it's better to continue to receive these subsidies for as long as they are available (if they due to go, for whatever reason) and try and influence better terms within the EU? It is clear that agriculture and environmental policies rank reasonably highly in the pecking order within the EU - contrary to the UK government trends of supporting certain industries (which you'd be subject to should we leave) so that, coupled with the potential for uncompetitive exports and the support from the NFU should, on paper, be a strong case to stay.

well i know they trying to do a trade deal with Brazil Argentina and Uruguay the wanted to sell the banking accounting and stuff like that, in return the 3 country's want to sell us beef, now Uruguay has good records for their animals and a high standard, but the other 2 not so much (google feedlots in them) and very poor recording keeping, so god know what you be eatting

I'd have hoped that if a deal is made and anything imported, it would need to meet whatever standard is set, after all, whats the point in a standard if it's not adhered to...out of interest is the standard of what is imported against EU or British critiera?

 

[Caged]

Leaving will reduce immigration now it's convenient to your argument?

Please enlighten me as to how it will be easier for an EU national to move to work in a post-Brexit UK than to do the same in Germany.

 

[Mulder]

I'm hardly setting weird 'strict personal criteria'... I'm asking for good evidence, which isn't forthcoming. In the absence of good evidence I'd suggest it's better to say 'we don't know', rather than trying to make people think farmers support one position or the other.

Come on Moses, you're just nitpicking.

I've already said "according to this poll, anyway". I'm not suggesting I have conclusive proof, I'm saying on the basis of the evidence available (which I get doesn't meet your standards) it seems there is support from farmers for Brexit. It may not carry much weight with you, but you can't deny the three farming polls, the farmer on here, the farming minister....

You're not providing anything to the contrary, you're just saying "but that doesn't prove it". I'm not saying it proves it....

None of that is a good argument against the EU. We could let in more Asian chefs if we wanted to... we just don't want to. Those quotes would only make sense if the EU meant freedom of movement in the EU/EEA/Switzerland and enforced rules on who we can let in from outside the free movement area, which it doesn't do of course.

Me, and British curry houses by the sounds of it, disagree with you.

 

[Caged]

What are you disagreeing with? That the UK government could make it easier to bring in curry chefs from Bangladesh? Because they could.

 

[Skunkworks]

Please enlighten me as to how it will be easier for an EU national to move to work in a post-Brexit UK than to do the same in Germany.

It's you lot are always banging on about Brexit wont affect immigration. Now it suddenly will?

 

[Six6siX]

Come on Moses, you're just nitpicking.

I've already said "according to this poll, anyway". I'm not suggesting I have conclusive proof, I'm saying on the basis of the evidence available (which I get doesn't meet your standards) it seems there is support from farmers for Brexit. It may not carry much weight with you, but you can't deny the three farming polls, the farmer on here, the farming minister....

You're not providing anything to the contrary, you're just saying "but that doesn't prove it". I'm not saying it proves it....

So what's the point in posting it? Its clearly an unreliable source due to a lack of quantifiable data. I could go and make a dozen web pages that say the opposite and link to them. They'd be equally as useful in this discussion..

This is the exact problem that people are complaining about with mainstream media - data is being presented from unreliable sources and data is being twisted to suit an agenda - from both sides.

 

[Caged]

It's you lot are always banging on about Brexit wont affect immigration. Now it suddenly will?

We are saying that successive governments have done nothing about non-EU immigration numbers, so why is it so certain that Brexit is a guarantee of lower immigration?

But I don't know how that is relevant to the ease at which an EU national will be able to work here post-Brexit compared to an EU country. It's pretty obvious that it will be easier for an EU citizen to work in the EU.

 

[Skunkworks]

We are saying that successive governments have done nothing about non-EU immigration numbers, so why is it so certain that Brexit is a guarantee of lower immigration?

Where have I said that?

But I don't know how that is relevant to the ease at which an EU national will be able to work here post-Brexit compared to an EU country. It's pretty obvious that it will be easier for an EU citizen to work in the EU.

No EU citizens ever work outside the EU?

 

[Mulder]

So what's the point in posting it? Its clearly an unreliable source due to a lack of quantifiable data. I could go and make a dozen web pages that say the opposite and link to them. They'd be equally as useful in this discussion.

Go on then?

All you're doing is saying "your sources are rubbish". You need to prove your own argument, not just say "but your argument is rubbish".

 

[Mulder]

What are you disagreeing with?

My point, and the point of British curry houses as per that article, is that being in the EU means EU migrants get preferential treatment over migrants from outside the EU.

 

[Six6siX]

Go on then?

All you're doing is saying "your sources are rubbish". You need to prove your own argument, not just say "but your argument is rubbish".

In other words, "I can say anything I want and it is correct unless you prove it wrong?"

That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works!

 

[Caged]

My point, and the point of British curry houses as per that article, is that being in the EU means EU migrants get preferential treatment over migrants from outside the EU.

Yes, the person quoted in that article wants to bring in curry chefs from Bangladesh. The majority of Brexit supporters citing immigration as the reason for their opinion want less immigration. It doesn't follow that Brexit will make it easier for people from Bangladesh to come here and work in restaurants, because it's not the EU preventing us from doing that now.

Where have I said that?

You'll forgive me for interpreting this:

it allows us to plan infrastructure and services so as not to lower the quality of life for everyone currently here, whether they were born here or immigrated.

As an argument for lower immigration.

No EU citizens ever work outside the EU?

Of course EU citizens work outside the EU. That was never the argument. You said we can pick the best if we are outside the EU, the point put to you was why would someone from an EU country want to work here and go to the hassle of getting their partner and family in when they could just stay within the EU. I thought Tunney's point was pretty clear on that.

 

[Mulder]

In other words, "I can say anything I want and it is correct unless you prove it wrong?"

That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works!

What?

In favour of my argument I've posted three polls from farmers, the farming minister, the farmer on here, evidence of how CAP benefits millionaire landowners, other extensive criticism of CAP.

In favour of your argument you've posted....nothing. Other than "your argument stinks".

Really convincing.

 

[Six6siX]

What?

In favour of my argument I've posted three polls from farmers, the farming minister, the farmer on here, evidence of how CAP benefits millionaire landowners, other extensive criticism of CAP.

In favour of your argument you've posted....nothing. Other than "your argument stinks".

Really convincing.

No one is disputing anything you've posted other than the fact that the polls are based on unqualified data and therefore shouldn't be used to support your argument.

 

[estebanrey]

Yes, the person quoted in that article wants to bring in curry chefs from Bangladesh. The majority of Brexit supporters citing immigration as the reason for their opinion want less immigration. It doesn't follow that Brexit will make it easier for people from Bangladesh to come here and work in restaurants, because it's not the EU preventing us from doing that now.

Of course it is, we have to have necessarily harsher and more retrictive visa rules for non-EU migrants to compensate/offset the numbers coming in from the EU which we can't control.

Despite only comprising of 7% of the global population, EU migration makes up nearly half of all immigration here.

If EU citizens had to face the same visa conditions as everyone else, you could loosen the rules a little (thereby making it easier for Bangladeshi curry chefs to come over) AND reduce the total immigration figure at the same time.

 

[Caged]

A chef is actually permitted as a skilled worker and is on the shortage application list so can apply for a Tier 2 visa:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa.../Shortage_Occupation_List_-_November_2015.pdf

ONLY the following job in this occupation code:
 skilled chef where:
- the pay is at least £29,570 per year
after deductions for accommodation,
meals etc; and
- the job requires five or more years
relevant experience in a role of at least
equivalent status to the one they are
entering – see notes below; and
- the job is not in either a fast food
outlet, a standard fare outlet, or an
establishment which provides a takeaway
service; and
- the job is in one of the following roles:
o executive chef – limited to one
per establishment
o head chef – limited to one per
establishment
o sous chef – limited to one for
every four kitchen staff per
establishment
o specialist chef – limited to one
per speciality per establishment

Presumably the representative for the Bangladeshi Caterers Association knows this but those aren't the sorts of roles that his members are looking to fill.

 

[Mulder]

Are you just trolling? If not, I hadn't realised you were that dim. Hey-ho.

How is asking someone to prove their argument trolling?

As for calling me dim, come on Moses, there's no need for that.

If you post polls which can't be relied upon given the ridiculous methodology/anecdotal evidence/personal opinions, does that really constitute an argument? Especially an argument which needs a counter? That's just embarrassing, tbh. Given the hour, are you under the influence?

Are you serious? You call me dim, then suggest I'm under the influence? Wow, really convincing.

These are polls of hundreds of farmers, a farmer on here, and the UK's farming minister. And the evidence of how CAP mainly benefits millionaire landowners.

Again, I am not suggesting this is conclusive proof, but hey, at least it's something. You clearly don't have anything to support your argument so are just reverting to "but your sources suck" and then just to top it off, getting personal.

 

[Skunkworks]

As an argument for lower immigration.

It's an argument for keeping any increase at a pace that allows services to also keep pace.

Of course EU citizens work outside the EU. That was never the argument. You said we can pick the best if we are outside the EU...

I said advertise and choose the best. I.e. the best of those who repsond.

...the point put to you was why would someone from an EU country want to work here and go to the hassle of getting their partner and family in when they could just stay within the EU.

Then I guess they don't want to work here that much if it's such a hassle, and wouldn't respond in the first place.