84 Confirmed dead after another apparent terrorism attack in Nice, France,

stewski said:
Interesting you selectively attempt to answer one part of that post.
Click to expand...

Interesting you don't answer anything. Also the other parts of your post weren't pertinent to the discussion at hand ref. the IRA and their motives.
 
Dis86 said:
And just wow why? Show that religion was the driver. You won't be able to because it simply wasn't. The ira don't want everyone to be catholic. They want a united Ireland free of British rule. That is their mandate. Simple as that.
Religion came in to it because both the Republic and northern were deeply religious countries with differing denominations. One the traditional Irish religion, the other a sign of loyalty to the British crown.
Religion was a way to identify an opponent but it wasn't a goal or objective.
Click to expand...

IS is a political organisation too. It too uses religion to identify its opponents.
 
Religion and politics are generally inseparable with such things so there is little point in trying.

I can see what Dis86 is saying though as there is a marked difference between the two organisations. One wanted land for its people and would commit atrocities to get that whilst the other wants land for its people to use that as a platform to then assimilate the whole planet. The former uses religion and politics to achieve a limited and specified aim. The latter uses religion and politics to achieve an expansive and impossible wide reaching aim. There is a massive difference in scale. The is also the difference in that the former targets people who oppressed or were associated with the oppressors in some loose fashion. The latter targets people as they are deemed unworthy and lesser.
 
Xordium said:
Religion and politics are generally inseparable with such things so there is little point in trying.

I can see what Dis86 is saying though as there is a marked difference between the two organisations. One wanted land for its people and would commit atrocities to get that whilst the other wants land for its people to use that as a platform to then assimilate the whole planet. The former uses religion and politics to achieve a limited and specified aim. The latter uses religion and politics to achieve an expansive and impossible wide reaching aim. There is a massive difference in scale. The is also the difference in that the former targets people who oppressed or were associated with the oppressors in some loose fashion. The latter targets people as they are deemed unworthy and lesser.
Click to expand...

I'd agree that there is a difference in the nature of the two and that religion is near inseparable from politics in such instances. What's not being acknowledged is that in both cases religious leaders denounce the actions even though this is not apparent to the average person.
 
stewski said:
I'd agree that there is a difference in the nature of the two and that religion is near inseparable from politics in such instances. What's not being acknowledged is that in both cases religious leaders denounce the actions even though this is not apparent to the average person.
Click to expand...

And day-to-day efforts of community and spiritual leaders, their engagement and risk to their person they undertake to challenge hate in the community, are not newsworthy. Now, someone out of control striking for what they see as GREAT JUSTICE -- that's high traffic right there! Splendid if it can fit a cultural Armageddon scenario since trolls will be buzzing and sending them eye-balls for weeks afterwards. Still, you don't see the Archbishop of Canterbury apologising on national television, each and every single damn time, when a fundamentalist 'christian' goes ape or your average white thug commits a heinous crime thinking St George guides their sorry hide or something. With their biases firmly in a row, the same alarmists and loud critics stay quiet there. What a surprise! The insistence to generalise Muslims as one great blob of otherness is folly and double-standards of the highest order.

Maybe we should try engaging people as individuals and human beings, first and foremost, to get things going in the right direction? We managed to integrate Catholicism, Protestantism, Judaism, various Christian sects, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, atheists, spiritual humanists and plain oddballs. Not without effort, but the list doesn't have to break or stop with Islam, which also has many strands and traditions and does evolve over time. For crying out loud -- Mayor of London is Muslim; has the world ended? No.

If people really want to have a theological debate or make serious comment on and offer a critique of Islam as it is applied and practised in the UK, then I echo the posts and sentiments above that encourage them to study what they attempt to attack out of ignorance, and only then form their arguments. Otherwise you're not really engaging and simply baiting other members on these forums who keep their religious beliefs to themselves and make as valid a contribution to these forums as you do.
 
Last edited:
Amnesia said:
it was put down as bickering :p

your argument is coming across almost religious.
person 1: God exists he created everything
person 2: Prove it
person 1: You prove he didnt!!!!!!!


a guy makes a claim, it isnt my job to disprove him but his job to prove it.
Click to expand...

You seem very keen to avoid actually discussing the topic... aside from your demands of other posters to answer questions (when you're happy to ignore questions yourself).
 
stewski said:
I'm glad you disassociate yourself from the actions of the IRA. From my own memory I see little difference between Muslims at large Now and Irish Catholics at large during the period that the IRA were active terrorists.

I don't recall Irish Catholics, leaders of the church etc apologising for/denouncing IRA actions at the time, though I was relatively young during that period so perhaps they were active in denouncing the violence on mass and I just missed it?
Click to expand...

Where are you from, and where did you live? you appear to know less than Jon Snow.
Look up Denis Faul, a priest widely known in Northern Ireland during the troubles, a school Principal in a republican area, living in a republican county, eternally denouncing the IRA, at the same time the civil rights leaders often denounced them. JohnHume probably the best politician Northern Ireland ever had, had absolutely no time for blood and murder, but fought for equal righta, which basically in Northern Ireland there now exists for the most part.
It did not before.
There were next to no rights before.

You know nothing of the Catholic people and their struggle for rights against a backdrop of internment and violence. Many did support the IRA, and many still do to this day, but lets face it, a muslim in the UK is not opressed by the nation, not oppressed by the state, not unable to obtain an education, not unable to obtain a job, not unable to start a company.

It is a completely different situation, it was never just iver land or invasion or freedom, and if you cannot see this you know nothing of the conflict, or the thousands of people who died, and as such, you should do some reading. Rather than damn the entire Catholic community as IRA loving violence embracing haters.

You are uttrely wrong.
 
dowie said:
You seem very keen to avoid actually discussing the topic... aside from your demands of other posters to answer questions (when you're happy to ignore questions yourself).
Click to expand...

oh but the answer was already there if only you could... whats the word.



dowie said:
in what way is he not a Muslim? Because someone trying to distance themselves from it has said he ate pork? Because he isn't pious enough?
Click to expand...

Amnesia said:
i didnt make a claim of what he believed or say he wasnt a muslim :p

im asking how he was following islam

there is a difference
Click to expand...

did you need it typing out separately for you ?
 
stewski said:
I'd agree that there is a difference in the nature of the two and that religion is near inseparable from politics in such instances. What's not being acknowledged is that in both cases religious leaders denounce the actions even though this is not apparent to the average person.
Click to expand...

Yes, they do one now but of the mistakes the Muslim communities made after 9/11 was to manage the aftermath very very poorly. I can certainly see why they did it effectively they didn't see it as a problem as they felt they were not associated with the people who did the events. Unfortunately, in the eyes of many there was a loose link there (or stronger link in some peoples' eyes). I believe they didn't want to condemn the actions because they thought it would look like your standard denial and therefore imply some guilt eg the football chairman saying I have total confidence in the manage = I'll sack him within the week.

They've now realised that they have to be vocal in condemnation and they are doing that now however the precedent was set. I think they've finally realised (and I think was due to how IS largely target Muslims and how that was a wake up call to them) that it is a problem that stems from their community and therefore their community is where the solution will come from if one is ever to be found.
 
Xordium said:
They've now realised that they have to be vocal in condemnation and they are doing that now however the precedent was set. I think they've finally realised (and I think was due to how IS largely target Muslims and how that was a wake up call to them) that it is a problem that stems from their community and therefore their community is where the solution will come from if one is ever to be found.
Click to expand...

There is maybe a lot of truth in this part.

If people see ISIS as targeting Muslims and smaller sects of Islam they are beginning to realise it is a death cult and it doesn't matter what your religion really is. The option under their doctrine is to carry out aspects of the Koran that are extreme.
 
Amnesia said:
did you need it typing out separately for you ?
Click to expand...

no, but it has already been answered, you're particularly awkward, you don't seem to want to enter a discussion here but rather bang on about the same question

and actually you asked this

Amnesia said:
how do you know he believed in islam ?
but anyway explain how he was a follower of islam, what actions of his define him as a muslim.
Click to expand...

Believing in Islam is the defining characteristic of being a Muslim. If you're happy to accept that he believed in Islam then why question it? If not then could you explain why please? Is it simply because he isn't pious enough? That seems to be what you were alluding to previously. Though because you seem to prefer posturing and simply being awkward to actually having a discussion it isn't really getting any further.
 
[FnG]magnolia;29813288 said:
Self-identifying Christians, for example, aren't necessarily a follower of Christ if you mean by their thoughts, actions and words. Perhaps I've misunderstood your strawman.
Click to expand...

That isn't really a straw man but rather what the other poster was alluding to!

Though in this instance there is a rather obvious action involved, it certainly wasn't just an identity thing for the truck driver.
 
dowie said:
Believing in Islam is the defining characteristic of being a Muslim. If you're happy to accept that he believed in Islam then why question it? If not then could you explain why please? Is it simply because he isn't pious enough? That seems to be what you were alluding to previously. Though because you seem to prefer posturing and simply being awkward to actually having a discussion it isn't really getting any further.
Click to expand...

His question has been answered repeatedly and he knows his side of the persuasion is lost. Rather than admit he was wrong he would rather do as you say.
 
Well he seems to be trying some dubious semantic argument that he was questioned about a few pages ago (to what end it isn't clear either), though it doesn't really work... especially if he's not really willing to engage with others anyway.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom