Shots fired outside parliament - Please refrain from speculative and antagonistic posts

Chris Wilson said:
No one can surely be surprised any terrorist act has a Birmingham connection, surely? Sparkhill, entered in Google, looking at just the last few days and ignoring the current situation, is illuminating.

For example:

"A court has heard how three alleged terrorists who called themselves the Three Musketeers stashed a pipe bomb and machete inscribed with 'kafir' on the blade as they secretly plotted an attack.

Naweed Ali, 29, and Khobaib Hussain, 25, both of Sparkhill in Birmingham, along with Mohibur Rahman, 32, and Tahir Aziz, 38, of Stoke-on-Trent, are on trial at the Old Bailey accused of preparing terrorist acts between May 25 and August 27 last year.

Part of the case will be heard in secret to avoid "sensitive" evidence from two anonymous witnesses being made public, jurors have been told. Prosecutor Gareth Patterson QC told the court that evidence found on the defendants' phones revealed their violent ideology."

http://www.itv.com/news/central/2017-03-22/arabic-word-for-infidel-inscribed-on-to-machete/

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Inside the jihadi capital of Britain: How a tiny area of Birmingham has produced one in 10 of the UK's convicted Islamic terrorists - thanks to pandering PC Labour councillors
  • Sparkbrook in Birmingham has become synonymous with Islamic extremism
  • One in ten of all UK's convicted Islamic terrorists have come from the area
  • Sparkbrook is more than 70 per cent Muslim
  • Labour-controlled Birmingham City council accused of turning a blind eye
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ors-helped-create-jihadi-breeding-ground.html

And they want autonomous control of the council....
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Sparkbrook is a total **** hole now. The Labour council are a bunch lefties and to scared to speak out.
 
TwsT said:
It's abhorrent and it's not being ignored but knee jerk reactions have achieved what thus far? Terrorism evolves like any other crime does. We went to war in Iraq we created a power vacuum and it was filled by a group wanting to set up a caliphate, We went to war in Afghanistan created the same power vacuum and the same happened. We've bombed the living crap out of their homelands and we still have the problem.

History teaches us that you can't ban religion it doesn't work like that Faith is a weird and powerful thing and for some insane reason in the face of the most gruesome things some people still manage to stay strong to their beliefs. We have hundreds and hundreds of years of evidence that banning religion doesn't work. So what do you actually propose we do? Short of curtailing all civil rights and submitting ourselves to a completely open lifestyle of 0 privacy.

I would much rather we spend our efforts dealing with the needless deaths from poor social care than worry about the possibilities of a terrorist attack. You never know making the country a better place for everyone might stop some of the british people feeling alienated and becoming indoctrinated.
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This whole thread is heavy on finger-pointing but light on practical solutions. I feel that we are going to have to give up some of our civil liberties in order to stop such things happening in the future, I've pointed to other recent examples where this has also been the case (Belfast). Your last statement is just crazy as to suggest that this guy would not have killed 2+ people if his gran had a better time in hospital. People have always been alienated and discriminated against in this country; Christians vs Catholics, serfdom and the general class structure. The classless, raceless, sexless utopia you think will resolve these issues is some way off yet.
 
danielanthony said:
This whole thread is heavy on finger-pointing but light on practical solutions. I feel that we are going to have to give up some of our civil liberties in order to stop such things happening in the future, I've pointed to other recent examples where this has also been the case (Belfast). Your last statement is just crazy as to suggest that this guy would not have killed 2+ people if his gran had a better time in hospital. People have always been alienated and discriminated against in this country; Christians vs Catholics, serfdom and the general class structure. The classless, raceless, sexless utopia you think will resolve these issues is some way off yet.
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not at all social welfare extends beyond grannies, there's mental health, education, everything. Classes create most of the problems in society the most crime happens in the poorest parts the highest birth rates happen in the poorest parts the education of the poorest parts is systematically lower. I dont' want communism or a sexless utopia but a bit of equality would go along way to improving the lives of so many more people than building more walls and more fences to keep the undesirables out.

The whole idea of building walls is exactly what you're accusing people of doing when you say their turning a blind eye. IT doesn't tackle the issue it just hides it from site.
 
TwsT said:
It's abhorrent and it's not being ignored but knee jerk reactions have achieved what thus far? Terrorism evolves like any other crime does. We went to war in Iraq we created a power vacuum and it was filled by a group wanting to set up a caliphate, We went to war in Afghanistan created the same power vacuum and the same happened. We've bombed the living crap out of their homelands and we still have the problem.

History teaches us that you can't ban religion it doesn't work like that Faith is a weird and powerful thing and for some insane reason in the face of the most gruesome things some people still manage to stay strong to their beliefs. We have hundreds and hundreds of years of evidence that banning religion doesn't work. So what do you actually propose we do? Short of curtailing all civil rights and submitting ourselves to a completely open lifestyle of 0 privacy.

I would much rather we spend our efforts dealing with the needless deaths from poor social care than worry about the possibilities of a terrorist attack. You never know making the country a better place for everyone might stop some of the british people feeling alienated and becoming indoctrinated.
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Brigitte Gabriel of the Heritage Foundation, and from the Lebanon articulates very well about using relativity to say terrorism and extremism is causing us much less harm than other ills. Ostrich like behaviour is what the Islamic State just love, conciliatory talk, candle lit vigils, brotherly bonding. That Cox man. They have a wry smile as they ponder their next move... How could it be so easy...?

Gabriel at her finest:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFDeIDU__C4
 
Chris Wilson said:
Brigitte Gabriel of the Heritage Foundation, and from the Lebanon articulates very well about using relativity to say terrorism and extremism is causing as much less harm than other ills. Ostrich like behaviour is what the Islamic State just love, conciliatory talk, candle light vigils, brotherly bonding. They have a wry smile as they ponder their next move... How could it be so easy...?

Gabriel at her finest:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFDeIDU__C4
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Go sign up for the war you so badly want then. Very good to say Action is needed but please what action do you want? You're all so quick to say we're sticking our heads in the sand but you never have a viable solution.
 
Chris Wilson said:
Like it or not, admit or deny it, we are in the midst of a holy war, a Jihad called by IS and its supporters. Until we treat it as a proper war we will be treated as the meek, apologist, ineffectual, consumerist, drink and drug riddled weaklings we have become.
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And what the hell do you think we have been doing in Iraq and Syria for the last few years, if not waging war on ISIS? :rolleyes:

This isn't a conventional war against a nations standing army, but guerrilla warfare against a terrorist group and part of that war is that they will fight back using their tactics, and not always on far away lands where you don't have to worry about it from your pub in Shropshire, but on our home soil. That is something we have to accept as the tragedy of being at war with these people, not frightened little rabbits every time something happens.

And to put it in perspective, on the other side of this war we are fighting, our 'side' managed to kill 33 innocent civilians yesterday by bombing a refugee centre.....**** happens in war, on both sides and people die. But hey, I'm sure it's a great comfort to the relatives picking up pieces of their loved ones that this wasn't intentional but just collateral damage.

And then when these innocent civillians do flee their homeland to try and stop being killed by them or us, they meet people like you who want to offer no help, call them cowards for not fighting in a civil war, tarnish them all as terrorists and want to sink their boats in the middle of sea to teach them a lesson.

Chris Wilson said:
Actually the Islamic State come up with these descriptions, and unfortunately they are damned right.
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Oh right, so you are now believing the propaganda from our enemy and spouting it as truth......I think we can all see who are the weak minded weak willed people in this country
 
Twists could argue that you are the one with your head in the sand, as its so much easier to blame foreigners half way across the world than to accept that poorly run areas of your society contribute to terrorism and that nipping these issues at the bud rather than upping security can have an overall positive effect.
 
Avenged7Fold said:
Twists could argue that you are the one with your head in the sand, as its so much easier to blame foreigners half way across the world than to accept that poorly run areas of your society contribute to terrorism and that nipping these issues at the bud rather than upping security can have an overall positive effect.
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Quite

some liberal literature for people to wrap their heads around, I know how you all hate experts but it's an article explaining why people trust each other less in society's where inequality is high.
http://www.yesmagazine.org/happiness/want-the-good-life-your-neighbors-need-it-too



Also this sudden knowlege you lot have aquired? How are you so sure the extremists want us to head in the sand? How do you know they don't want retaliatory action? I mean they hide in schools behind children in afghanistan then use the deaths of those children to garner support.

Every offensive action we have taken since 2001 is used as propaganda against us. What makes you so sure that it's liberalism that is at fault?
 
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deuse said:
Sparkbrook is a total **** hole now. The Labour council are a bunch lefties and to scared to speak out.
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I live next to Sparkbrook and Sparkhill, you're very correct. :(

Plenty of raids last night in Brum to keep us aware that it's a **** hole, nobody was surprised when they realised some of the suspects were from down the road.
 
danielanthony said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectarian_violence_among_Christians

I think practical solutions would be:

1) More CCTV in all cities and town centres.
2) Check points or barriers protecting areas where there are large numbers of pedestrians.

We are also getting better online surveillance via the UK Investigatory Powers Act (2016).
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London has the most CCTV cameras in the country it didn't stop that man yesterday? How does a CCTV camera stop a man taking actions into his own hands and doing what happened yesterday?
Check points? How happy are you going to be traveling through repeated check points to go about your daily life? Or do you just mean for people who aren't white?

Chris Wilson said:
I love inequality, it's what makes working damned hard worthwhile. To achieve more than someone who sits on their backside, and scrounges and whines ;)
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And it also creates the problems you love to sit on your soap box and moan about. Anyway you keep working sonny jim don't forget to enjoy life too. Psst inequality isn't about free pases for the lazy but the redistribution of wealth so that everyone has the same chances. instead of giving tax cuts to the 1% we use their taxes for the betterment of the working class who work every day of their lives.
 
TwsT said:
London has the most CCTV cameras in the country it didn't stop that man yesterday? How does a CCTV camera stop a man taking actions into his own hands and doing what happened yesterday?
Check points? How happy are you going to be traveling through repeated check points to go about your daily life? Or do you just mean for people who aren't white?
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Agreed, these two ideas are terrible. There are more cameras than people able to actually monitor them.

Lets put this in perspective. It's been what, 12 years since the last attack. I think our forces have done very well to stop anything else happening.
 
Without people to monitor this CCTV and people at hand to take action, it wont do much for immediate threats. Busy areas will still be incredibly difficult to monitor. The expense in introducing something like that would be immense. The money could likely be spent more effectively as Twist suggests or just pumping it into intelligence gathering rather than surveillance, if you disagree with Twist.

*Also, Catholics are Christians, i think you were meant to originally write Protestant vs Catholics or whatever flavour of Jesus believer.*
 
danielanthony said:
I think practical solutions would be:

1) More CCTV in all cities and town centres.
2) Check points or barriers protecting areas where there are large numbers of pedestrians.

We are also getting better online surveillance via the UK Investigatory Powers Act (2016).
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But who pays for the extra CCTV and the people to monitor it 24/7? Who pays for security at the checkpoints, and how do you mitigate the disruption that said checkpoints cause? Do you stop and search everyone? These suggestions aren't practical otherwise we'd be doing them already.

As for the investigatory powers act, all that does is push terrorists away from mainstream forms of communication onto more secure ones, making the whole process harder. Stupid ones will still use WhatsApp or Facebook or whatever, but if they really want to coordinate something bad they'll be using VPNs and proprietary encrypted communications software. The IPA would allow GCHQ to hack said communications, but that doesn't mean that process is simple.
 
Avenged7Fold said:
Without people to monitor this CCTV and people at hand to take action, it wont do much for immediate threats. Busy areas will still be incredibly difficult to monitor. The expense in introducing something like that would be immense. The money could likely be spent more effectively as Twist suggests or just pumping it into intelligence gathering rather than surveillance, if you disagree with Twist.
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I'm not saying I have all the answers, just putting some ideas out there based on what has been done before in order to beat terrorist threats. The army had observation posts in N.Ireland manned 24/7 so not a totally crazy idea especially with modern techniques in facial recognition. I'm just maintaining that *something* needs to change as we can't carry on business as usual.
 
TwsT said:
London has the most CCTV cameras in the country it didn't stop that man yesterday? How does a CCTV camera stop a man taking actions into his own hands and doing what happened yesterday?
Check points? How happy are you going to be traveling through repeated check points to go about your daily life? Or do you just mean for people who aren't white?
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This attacker is allegedly known to the police as a potential extremist, no barriers would be needed if he'd been interred, save the walls of some cell. But if you wanted barriers, how statistically would be an efficient way of checking people out? Right, so that's not going to happen, is it?
 
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