Tower block fire - london

[RoboCod]

Who? If I don't get a reply I guess I've got my answer .

Don't be daft. I often find myself associating your username to a thought out and mature opinion based post. To me you come across as humble with that too. Don't put yourself down..?

I've only got one member on my ignore list after all these years. Whatever he said must have been really stupid lol

No point trying to 1up with naming names but I just can't be bothered to discuss anything with them. The guy holds things against you based on stuff you debated over a year ago and carries those matters into present day discussion in a vain attempt to score points. He's then so sanctimonious he won't ever concede on any points you raise, it just smacks of a desperate desire for online validation. Rather than stroke his ego with a response though, I'd just rather not bother because it's tiresome. The problem being, he is not just an individual, there are many people like him. I wish people would give up pushing political agenda over such tragic events. Yes, the core reason as to why this tragedy occurred is shrouded in political issue but that doesn't excuse you point scoring for our chosen "team". It's depraved, calculated and sad.

At the risk of blabbering down the political rhetoric I hate, Westminster is full of cretins, the sooner people stop fooling themselves that those cretins care personally about them the better. And no, I'm far from anti establishment, I'm just a realist who expects no more of Theresa May than to do her job as PM and to not **** around (which of course she is failing badly lately). I don't want my mate next door running the country.

 

[Rroff]

I don't think anyone's stance has changed over Keynesian concepts.

I think he looks like a marxist!

So the words "I am a Marxist" are meaningless?

 

[Caracus2k]

who said anything about Marxist? That failed years and years ago.....

the prospective chancellor of the exchequer, John McDonnell for one?

A man placed there by Corbyn. If you placed a self confessed Marxist in charge of a role where they might one day have control of the nations finances don't you think it night indicate some leanings that way yourself?

 

[stewski]

I don't think anyone's stance has changed over Keynesian concepts.



So the words "I am a Marxist" are meaningless?

You don't think anyone's stance has changed over keynesian concepts based on what, telepathy?

On the second part, why so cryptic, who are you quoting what is the context?

Someone in power can claim, I am the eggman, I'm still interested primarily, in what is proposed and then what occurs.

 

[dowie]

On the second part, why so cryptic, who are you quoting what is the context?

most likely John McDonnell, though Corbyn has never denied it either

 

[Caracus2k]

Where?

everywhere its ever been tried.....

perhaps name somewhere it has worked.... (hint: Scandinavian countries although working some quite socialist policies with relatively generous welfare states are not 'Marxist' they certainly don't endorse state seizure of property from the rich in the manner proposed by JC... They have small (unlike the uk) largely homogenous (although subject to some recent radical change) populations and relatively high mineral wealth (especially in Norway's case) which helps their policies be viable.

Here's a good article on Sweeden ... a country that 'is held up as an example of capitalism done right'.

That shows a third way approach the country has taken that differs from Corbyn style Marxism and Tory austerity..... (note: I am not totally endorsing the Swedish government merely pointing out that they are not Marxist as all to often is claimed by some)

 

[stewski]

everywhere its ever been tried.....

perhaps name somewhere it has worked.... (hint: Scandinavian countries although working some quite socialist policies with relatively generous welfare states are not 'Marxist' they certainly don't endorse state seizure of property from the rich in the manner proposed by JC... They have small (unlike the uk) largely homogenous (although subject to some recent radical change) populations and relatively high mineral wealth (especially in Norway's case).

In a world where "Communist" China is simultaneously by most metrics the most successful "Capitalist" nation I asked for a specific example of where Marxism had failed (or even been tried) for a reason.

None of which is likely to have any real baring on this thread, beyond hysterically using the word Marxist when people suggest requisitioning state/private property to help those displaced or prevent unused property laying dormant.

All that said, half of Cornwall must find the notion of unused 2nd home properties an ironic issue for London!

 

[Caracus2k]

In a world where "Communist" China is simultaneously by most metrics the most successful "Capitalist" nation I asked for a specific example of where Marxism had failed (or even been tried) for a reason.

None of which is likely to have any real baring on this thread, beyond hysterically using the word Marxist when people suggest requisitioning state/private property to help those displaced or prevent unused property laying dormant.

All that said, half of Cornwall must find the notion of unused 2nd home properties an ironic issue for London!

ok it was tried and is failing in Venezuela..... a country whose recent leadership JC has shown admiration for

seizing property in the manner described is text book Marxism.... It's not hysterical to point this out...

 

[Rroff]

most likely John McDonnell, though Corbyn has never denied it either

Go back a couple of years and there are a few current players in the party who have either written or video record of affiliation to Marxism or have eulogised those principles - go back a few more years and they were active in institutions aimed at furthering the more hardcore elements of socialism in the UK. I can't see how anyone can deny they have Marxist affiliations or that somehow the implications of that would no longer be relevant if they got into a position of power.

People seem to have very quickly forgotten the position those people held not that long ago and bought fully into the sales pitch of the last few months can't get my head around it as many of them show discernment of the duplicity of the Tories over this kind of thing but can't see the exact same thing in Labour. Its like expecting May to have given up on the snooper's charter because she hasn't mentioned it for a few weeks.

 

[awaybreaktoday]

the prospective chancellor of the exchequer, John McDonnell for one?

A man placed there by Corbyn. If you placed a self confessed Marxist in charge of a role where they might one day have control of the nations finances don't you think it night indicate some leanings that way yourself?

they lost, they lost to a useless campaign and lame duck pm, they have no chance

the election was there for the taking and they still lost

 

[Vonhelmet]

Why are we bickering about Marxism when labour are nowhere near Marxism? Is this some weird worst case fantasy scenario game? It all seems a bit straw-man-y.

 

[Rroff]

Why are we bickering about Marxism when labour are nowhere near Marxism? Is this some weird worst case fantasy scenario game? It all seems a bit straw-man-y.

In the same respect that the Tories are nowhere near Totalitarianism. I mean some current Labour MPs/Cabinet were members of the International Marxist Group for instance.

 

[Caracus2k]

Why are we bickering about Marxism when labour are nowhere near Marxism? Is this some weird worst case fantasy scenario game? It all seems a bit straw-man-y.

their leader just this week suggested the state should arbitrarily (and unnecessarily) seize private property to be doled out as the state saw fit

how is this 'nowhere near' Marxism???

 

[Vonhelmet]

their leader suggested the state should arbitrarily (and unnecessarily) seize private property to be doled out.

how is this 'nowhere near' Marxism???

Give me the actual line.

 

[Vonhelmet]

In the same respect that the Tories are nowhere near Totalitarianism.

Well, that's true as well. Both parties are pretty much centre right, and have more in common with each other than separating them. We've lost any proper distinction between the parties so we end up with ridiculous labels being thrown around, and discussion becomes meaningless.

 

[dowie]

Why are we bickering about Marxism when labour are nowhere near Marxism? Is this some weird worst case fantasy scenario game? It all seems a bit straw-man-y.

not particularly - would you expect people not to 'bicker' if UKIP or the Conservatives counted self declared fascists among the leadership/high ranking members? Sure you could point at their manifesto and claim they're no where near fascism but surely the ideology of key members would be concerning too?

 

[Rroff]

Well, that's true as well. Both parties are pretty much centre right, and have more in common with each other than separating them. We've lost any proper distinction between the parties so we end up with ridiculous labels being thrown around, and discussion becomes meaningless.

Tories have gone much further right in the last few years and Labour has also steered away from the "New Labour" days of centre right and with so many hard-left in the cabinet now its going to go even further away from those days of New Labour.

 

[Vonhelmet]

Tories have gone much further right in the last few years and Labour has also steered away from the "New Labour" days of centre right and with so many hard-left in the cabinet now its going to go even further away from those days of New Labour.

We can only hope. It would be nice to actually have something to pick between.

 

[dowie]

Tories have gone much further right in the last few years and Labour has also steered away from the "New Labour" days of centre right and with so many hard-left in the cabinet now its going to go even further away from those days of New Labour.

That's why I couldn't vote for either tbh...

 

[balky12]

So you've not bothered to take a closer look behind the Sound bites?

Sadiq Khan commissioned an independent review of the cuts to the fire services, and the outcome was that they had coped well, but couldn't sustain any further cuts.

https://www.london.gov.uk/press-releases/mayoral/overall-the-service-has-coped-well-with-cuts



As Mayor - you surely rely on experts to give you decent information? It's not like he could just be expected to know if they are funded well enough.

Sorry, excuse me here, what is your point?

I said in my post that Sadiq Khan was political point scoring saying London Fire Brigade was under funded and played a part in this tragedy. This was inherited from the Boris era.

I then went into say that I have also heard that he signed off a report saying that the London Fire brigades budget was adequate...

My point was you can't blame someone else if you have approved of the same actions.

The first was a sound bite attacking the Tories, the second was in a paper I read. But yes, beyond that I haven't delved deeper. But you seem to have proven me correct?

Either way I weren't really fussed with the total accuracy. A tragedy has happened and I think criticising the LFB budget is missing the mark here by some margin.