'Incident' on Tube - District Line

deuse · 20 Sep 2017 at 11:13

Burnsy2023 said:
Just because you've been referred to Prevent does not mean you're a terrorist or even an extremist, it's a preventative scheme as the name suggests.

Glaucus said:
and? even if you read it like you are.
You want people locked up for thought crime? thankfully that isn't a crime (yet)

So tell me. How did they know the guy could be a islamist problem? As you said one can't read minds.
You two seam to know all the facts.

Glaucus · 20 Sep 2017 at 11:24

deuse said:
So tell me. How did they know the guy could be a islamist problem? As you said one can't read minds.
You two seam to know all the facts.

that's not what I said at all.
if he hasn't broken a law he cant be arrested, there are many things that can lead you to be suspected, but that is not the same as evidence needed to convict.

Chris Wilson · 20 Sep 2017 at 11:39

These so called refugees (hell some are from Pakistan....), should be interred (ooops, typo, interned, but I like the original so I'll leave it

) and deported at the first whiff of scandal or suspicion. If they are unable to be squeaky clean model citizens lock `em up and kick `em out. We don't need to import problems. If they can't behave in a country they are claiming sanctuary in, then **** `em. Why wasn't this bloke with his family in Egypt anyway, rather than burdening our taxpayers?

deuse · 20 Sep 2017 at 11:48

Glaucus said:
that's not what I said at all.
if he hasn't broken a law he cant be arrested, there are many things that can lead you to be suspected, but that is not the same as evidence needed to convict.

Who said anything about a conviction? oh that's right YOU. I said it was known to police and government bodies.

NewGamer11 · 20 Sep 2017 at 11:50

Glaucus said:
that's not what I said at all.
if he hasn't broken a law he cant be arrested, there are many things that can lead you to be suspected, but that is not the same as evidence needed to convict.

Of course you can be arrested without breaking the law. You can even be charged without having broken the law. Of course, you wouldn't expect it to get to charging without sufficient evidence but you never know these days.

Glaucus · 20 Sep 2017 at 11:50

deuse said:
Who said anything about a conviction? oh that's right YOU. I said it was known to police and government bodies.

and what was your implication of that. its clear what you meant that they should have been dealt with.

Skunkworks · 20 Sep 2017 at 13:41

I’d treat this in the same way as a deadly disease. If people are from an area where the disease is prevalent, and there’s no test to determine who’s infected and who isn’t, then nobody from that area gets in.

Our government’s first duty should be to its citizens, not some foreign chancers. The UK is a spec on the globe, and there’s plenty of other places they can go. We owe them nothing.

Six6siX · 20 Sep 2017 at 13:47

Skunkworks said:
I’d treat this in the same way as a deadly disease. If people are from an area where the disease is prevalent, and there’s no test to determine who’s infected and who isn’t, then nobody from that area gets in.

Our government’s first duty should be to its citizens, not some foreign chancers. The UK is a spec on the globe, and there’s plenty of other places they can go. We owe them nothing.

How does any of that help with home grown terrorists?

Chris Wilson · 20 Sep 2017 at 13:59

I don't believe he said it did. But not having more sympathetic additions to the population is a good thing. How many "home grown" terrorists are from families who have been in the UK for many generations? Very, very few, if any, I suspect.

Skunkworks · 20 Sep 2017 at 14:22

Six6siX said:
How does any of that help with home grown terrorists?

From one of the many threads on this subject:

Skunkworks said:
These attacks are simply common or garden Islamic dysfunction. It happens everywhere Islam has the numbers and freedom to do it – it’s hard wired. There’s a reason Muslim majority countries are authoritarian, it’s to manage Islam’s presence. We’ve noticed increased problems not because of foreign policy, intolerance or Islamophobia**, but because Islam is spreading into the west and inevitably bringing its dysfunction with it.

The solution is a combination of:

Less Muslims

Less tolerance for Islam

Authoritarianism

Not only does something need to be done, but it needs to be seen to be done, because:

Skunkworks said:

Right now we have extreme members of Group A attacking and killing random members of Group B on a near daily basis. As this is happening in law & order societies Group B is staying peaceful and allowing the authorities to deal with. But if it keeps happening it’s only a matter of time before extreme members of Group B start returning the favour. Once that happens the tit-for-tat attacks will escalate beyond just extreme members of each group as more and more people are affected.

Click to expand...

Just to pre-empt a few predicable replies:

“But but but #MoreRadicalism!”

You don’t get to say Islam is a religion of peace in one breath and then insist that if a butterfly flaps its wings it’ll cause more radicalism.

“Tiny minority!”

This is utterly disingenuous, and the people who say it know it.

Example:

Ideology 1: 17 ideological murders per 100k members

Ideology 2: 22 ideological murders per 100k members

Ideology 3: 25 ideological murders per 100k members

Ideology 4: 150 ideological murders per 100k members

As you can see, all tiny minorities, but one of these things is not like the others.

“You just hate brown people”

Again, utterly disingenuous. Where are all threads about Sikhs and Hindus?

“You’re a far-right nazi!”

Nope, but I do have testosterone high enough to recognise a potential threat to the group.

**I loathe that word. It was designed purely to silence scrutiny/criticism of Islam where Islam doesn’t have the power to silence it with force.

Six6siX · 20 Sep 2017 at 15:45

Chris Wilson said:
I don't believe he said it did. But not having more sympathetic additions to the population is a good thing. How many "home grown" terrorists are from families who have been in the UK for many generations? Very, very few, if any, I suspect.

You're going to have to define "many" generations? What's the prerequisite number of generations before you can be considered British enough to not be at risk of becoming a home grown terrorist?

Recent attacks have increasingly been by individuals who were born and raised in the country. My question was what exactly does making changes to immigration policy regarding countries considered to be 'hotbeds of terrorism' do to solve that problem?

Skunkworks said:
From one of the many threads on this subject:

Took me a while to translate that but you think less tolerance of islam and fewer muslims coming into the country will stop muslims born in this country becoming radicalised?

Don't see it myself.

Islam (and other religions) will always exist in this country. It's not going anywhere. The problem of radicalisation isn't going to be eliminated by cutting off our country from the other muslim countries or indeed the rest of the world. If miscreants in other countries want to attack us then there are plenty of other vectors by which they will be able to seek out the disenfranchised, UK born and bred muslim and brainwash them to commit heinous acts under the ISIS banner. They don't need to come here (and in fact, it's less risky for them to do so, surely?).

Zethor · 20 Sep 2017 at 16:45

Skunkworks said:
From one of the many threads on this subject:

Less Muslims, lower tolerance for Islam and more authorianism willl help with home grown terrorists? Can you expand on how exactly that works? And while you are at it, did less Irish, lower tolerance for Catholicism and more authorianism help with the home grown terrorists in NI?

Hades · 20 Sep 2017 at 16:48

Zethor said:
Less Muslims, lower tolerance for Islam and more authorianism willl help with home grown terrorists? Can you expand on how exactly that works? And while you are at it, did less Irish, lower tolerance for Catholicism and more authorianism help with the home grown terrorists in NI?

The fund raising for the IRA in Irish pubs across the UK certainly didn't help.

Werewolf · 20 Sep 2017 at 18:24

Six6siX said:
You're going to have to define "many" generations? What's the prerequisite number of generations before you can be considered British enough to not be at risk of becoming a home grown terrorist?

Recent attacks have increasingly been by individuals who were born and raised in the country. My question was what exactly does making changes to immigration policy regarding countries considered to be 'hotbeds of terrorism' do to solve that problem?

.

Not to mention that the vast bulk of terrorist incidents in the UK over the last 20-70 years were commited by people who were "British" (and non islamic!). or for example the arrests the other week of a group of serving military who were members of a far right group, or a few months back the guy who had been stealing weapons/ammunition and explosives whilst serving in the British Army in order to supply the Irisih terrorists.

Skunkworks · 20 Sep 2017 at 18:51

If you just go to a whole other place or whole other time and totally ignore the bodycount metric there's nothing to see!

Burnsy2023 · 21 Sep 2017 at 11:58

deuse said:
So tell me. How did they know the guy could be a islamist problem? As you said one can't read minds.
You two seam to know all the facts.

I'm not suggesting I know all the facts, I'm just presenting another possibility that you seem to want to dismiss out of hand. People can be referred to Prevent purely because of their vulnerability and/or associations.

Chris Wilson · 21 Sep 2017 at 12:11

Seems this one was brought to their attention for very good reasons given his, and his 5 associates, three of which are also said to be migrants, activities.

deuse · 21 Sep 2017 at 13:26

Burnsy2023 said:
I'm not suggesting I know all the facts, I'm just presenting another possibility that you seem to want to dismiss out of hand. People can be referred to Prevent purely because of their vulnerability and/or associations.

So you have nothing to back up your claim other then a opinion...thought so. I was right it was known to the police and other agency's.

Burnsy2023 · 21 Sep 2017 at 14:20

deuse said:
So you have nothing to back up your claim other then a opinion...thought so. I was right it was known to the police and other agency's.

You could say the same if they we're stopped for speeding. You're making inferences that the evidence doesn't support.

Chris Wilson · 21 Sep 2017 at 14:53

To equate being reported to an anti terrorism unit is akin to being stopped for speeding is one of the most ludicrous supporting posts for attempted terrorist murderers I have ever seen. Whilst a speeding vehicle currently seems a tool of choice for murder by these terrorists your inference and support for their possible innocence is both naive and concerning. We are not talking about a rep caught 20 MPH over the speed limit, we are talking attempted murder and investigations by anti terrorist units of a migrant brought from the Calais Jungle in sympathy to their plight who apparently repays the UK by trying to commit mass murder on a London commuter train. The public have every right to make inferences and be highly concerned about terrorists posing as juvenile migrants.