James Bulger documentary

[robfosters]

thankfully we have social services to crack down on stuff like this.

I know they mean well, but social services really aren’t that impressive. How many children have they failed to protect from abuse who have ended up beaten or dead. Look at Baby P’s case. Dozens of visits made and the poor little tyke still ended up dead. I really don’t think you can trust social services to prevent incidences like this.

 

[[FnG]magnolia]

I know they mean well, but social services really aren’t that impressive. How many children have they failed to protect from abuse who have ended up beaten or dead. Look at Baby P’s case. Dozens of visits made and the poor little tyke still ended up dead. I really don’t think you can trust social services to prevent incidences like this.

How many people have they saved?

It's a trick question, I know that you have no idea.

 

[robfosters]

How many people have they saved?

It's a trick question, I know that you have no idea.

Exactly, do we know for sure how many people they’ve failed too?

No we don’t. That’s why proclaiming them as the reason why these kind of people don’t commit heinous acts is wide of the mark.

 

[[FnG]magnolia]

Exactly, do we know for sure how many people they’ve failed too?

You can't in good faith use 'exactly' when it's clear that you don't mean that or misunderstand what the word means.

No we don’t. That’s why proclaiming them as the reason why these kind of people don’t commit heinous acts is wide of the mark.

I don't understand any of that. Are you saying that we have no proof that someone has done something bad is evidence?

 

[Nitefly]

From wiki:

It was premeditated and the two of them knew it was wrong. Shameful parenting is a factor, but only a small part. I seriously doubt either of them was instructed on how to abduct and torture a two year old child - that was entirely their own doing.

@Trusty already covered this one for me. Nobody is saying they weren’t aware of their actions, I’m just saying they wouldn’t have been so inclined if it wasn’t for their hideous upbringing... particularly with there being two of them. Otherwise it’s like saying they were both ‘born with evil intent’. That may be true to a degree but what makes that manifest is a lack of guidance and care from parents.... for their ages, at least. If they committed the murder when they were adults, it would be different and I wouldn’t be saying the same thing.

 

[Vonhelmet]

You and your rehabilitation. Have you considered that the rehab given to the boys was adequate. After all, Thompson hasn’t reoffended but Venabkes has. Maybe Venables is actually so badly damaged that he’s beyond all rehabilitation.

I’ve already posted pretty much exactly that, but I was arguing against someone who was suggesting they be used for scientific research or some such cobblers, so I felt it bore repeating...

 

[Edinho]

I'm just gald I was brought up in a decent environment. Personally I would have thrown the parents off a cliff then given the kids a second chance.

 

[Zethor]

You mean like rehabilitating them to be productive members of society? That would allow us some benefit from their existence.

Some people, such as Breivik, Abdeslam or other mass murderers can't be rehabilitated and the danger they pose means that they must be either locked up forever or released and kept under surveillance. These people are not the result of poor upbringing, poverty or abuse, they just want to see our society burning, they'll never be productive members in it.

Note that my opinion is not on the same side as some of the rambling, torch and pitchfork posters in this thread, I'm just saying that we should figure out how to safely and inexpensively remove certain elements from our society and find a way to profit from their miserable existance.

 

[Haggisman]

We are all capable of such terrible acts. There's no such thing as someone being evil, as much as we all might describe them that way.

Rubbish. We're all capable of performing terrible acts, however the majority of people do not choose to do so (and in fact try to avoid doing so) unless pushed to extremes. As you say they have free will, and (IMO) anyone who chooses to inflict pain and suffering on someone else "just because" is certainly evil

 

[Vonhelmet]

I don’t know that there’s any evidence to suggest that some people literally can’t be rehabilitated. I suspect we most likely just don’t know how to do it, or we can’t be bothered.

 

[Vonhelmet]

Rubbish. We're all capable of performing terrible acts, however the majority of people do not choose to do so (and in fact try to avoid doing so) unless pushed to extremes. As you say they have free will, and (IMO) anyone who chooses to inflict pain and suffering on someone else "just because" is certainly evil

You’re agreeing with him, though you don’t like to. We are all capable of good and bad and we are all capable of evil.

 

[Haggisman]

You’re agreeing with him, though you don’t like to. We are all capable of good and bad and we are all capable of evil.

It depends what you define as "capable". Am I physically capable of beating a 2 year old to death? Of course. Could I actually do it? Absolutely not (of course someone is now going to post a convoluted set of unrealistic circumstances in which doing so would be the best course of action, just to prove a point). My point is that being capable of doing something and actually choosing to do so are very different things, and that is the difference between being evil or not.

 

[TallPaul1878]

It depends what you define as "capable". Am I physically capable of beating a 2 year old to death? Of course. Could I actually do it? Absolutely not (of course someone is now going to post a convoluted set of unrealistic circumstances in which doing so would be the best course of action, just to prove a point). My point is that being capable of doing something and actually choosing to do so are very different things, and that is the difference between being evil or not.

My point is that cold blooded killers are no different to any of us. There is no evil spirit that possesses them, no chemical imbalance that triggers these actions in their brains. They are just a product of their environment

 

[Haggisman]

My point is that cold blooded killers are no different to any of us. There is no evil spirit that possesses them, no chemical imbalance that triggers these actions in their brains. They are just a product of their environment

Fair enough, then yes I agree, given the blank canvas of a child, anyone could be moulded into someone "evil" given the "right" (wrong) circumstances. (Although i was under the impression that there are certain chemical "traits" which make certain behaviours more likely)

 

[enkoda]

My point is that cold blooded killers are no different to any of us. There is no evil spirit that possesses them, no chemical imbalance that triggers these actions in their brains. They are just a product of their environment

No they're not. There has been some research on this subject (just google "warrior gene" and neuroscientist James Fallon) and you'll find that "they are just a product of their environment" isn't necessarily true.

 

[TallPaul1878]

No they're not. There has been some research on this subject (just google "warrior gene" and neuroscientist James Fallon) and you'll find that "they are just a product of their environment" isn't necessarily true.

We aren't all slaves to our DNA. What compels man into action is not predetermined at birth. Sure you might have a predisposition to violence, just as someone might be predisposed to addiction but that is not the contributing factor when someone commits a crime.

Do the research on inmates in prison and you will see the major contributing factors. The vast majority come from broken homes, from sink estates, poor education etc etc.

 

[TallPaul1878]

When Adam Lanza walked into a school in Connecticut and shot the place up the justice system got clearance to screen his DNA to look for this "warrior gene".

It's clear that there is a belief amongst people that this must be the reason why mass shootings occur in America. But what people are refusing to acknowledge is that we (the West) have a system that allows for winners and losers. In this system some people will fall through the cracks and become disenfranchised. Unfortunately this festers until someone total loses connection with the rest of society and flips out.

Adam Lanza, over a period of time, began to fall further and further away from society until he got to the point that he believed people to be undeserving of life.

Venables truly did believe that Jamie Bulger was "just a divvy". That he had zero value in the world and that it, in his mind, didn't mean all that much to kill him.

How did he come to that point? He wasn't born that way. Society as a whole let him fall through the cracks. His parents did nothing to bring him up properly, the school system did nothing to identify that this boy was falling out of society. His teachers described him as "horrid" but nothing was ever done.

@Vonhelmet professes the virtues of rehabilitation. He's right to do so but rehabilitation needs to happen BEFORE a crime is committed but are we, as a society, really prepared to start interfering like that with people's lives? Are we really going to stop useless people from having children, taking children from their parents at the first sign of trouble?

 

[TallPaul1878]

What I would propose is to take "at risk" children and put them into social care much earlier. Social care needs massively overhauling so that children can grow up in an environment conducive to producing useful members of society.

This would cost a tremendous amount of money but I'd argue it would be a drop in the ocean compared to what we are paying to keep them incarcerated once they've commited a crime.

 

[enkoda]

We aren't all slaves to our DNA. What compels man into action is not predetermined at birth. Sure you might have a predisposition to violence, just as someone might be predisposed to addiction but that is not the contributing factor when someone commits a crime.

Do the research on inmates in prison and you will see the major contributing factors. The vast majority come from broken homes, from sink estates, poor education etc etc.

I agree to an extent, but a predisposition to violence isn't the sole domain of people from abusive backgrounds or broken homes.

What I would propose is to take "at risk" children and put them into social care much earlier. Social care needs massively overhauling so that children can grow up in an environment conducive to producing useful members of society.

This would cost a tremendous amount of money but I'd argue it would be a drop in the ocean compared to what we are paying to keep them incarcerated once they've commited a crime.

Nail hit firmly on the head.
Unfortunately the steps needed to address the core issue here would be virtually impossible to implement with regards to human rights, public outcry, etc.

 

[FlakGunna]

Story has shocked me ever since I heard it back in the 90's. The things they did to that poor child.

If this was another era they would have been hung drawn and quartered. Such a shame they get to live. Vermin.

As usual and because we live in a an era now where everyone is judge, jury and executioner on social media and trolls hiding being their screens spreading nonsense. I really despise this era we live in sometimes, some of the people I've come across online boils my blood :http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ther-Denise-Fergus-slams-Facebook-trolls.html