NHS Rant

[Dis86]

The NHS bursary was scrapped AFAIK (I'm getting old). The NHS doesn't have a role in funding Doctors' training at the undergraduate level. The NHS doesn't have any say in the number of UK doctors trained.

There's plenty of other things the NHS does badly but this isn't really their remit.

Exactly, it was scrapped. The NHS doesn't have a role because they haven't allowed for it so it is their problem. Where I currently work we found there was a shortage of skilled mechanical fitters - solution - we funded apprenticeships. In a few years we removed the shortage of mechanical fitters that we were facing. There's nothing to stop the NHS redirecting some funds towards doing something similar instead of paying through the nose for incompetent or overpriced agency staff recruited from overseas.

Short-term pain, long term gain.

 

[Minstadave]

Exactly, it was scrapped. The NHS doesn't have a role because they haven't allowed for it so it is their problem. Where I currently work we found there was a shortage of skilled mechanical fitters - solution - we funded apprenticeships. In a few years we removed the shortage of mechanical fitters that we were facing. There's nothing to stop the NHS redirecting some funds towards doing something similar instead of paying through the nose for incompetent or overpriced agency staff recruited from overseas.

Short-term pain, long term gain.

Now I totally agree with you about the solution to NHS staffing be increased training of home grown doctors in part.

What I don’t really agree with is the NHS budget being the source of that, firstly the NHS bursary for doctors was peanuts even when it was in place (it may have been means tested but most of us got £1k a year for 3 of our 6 years). Nurses did better out of it if my memory serves.
It got dumped because the NHS is there to provide healthcare and has been underfunded to the point of breaking. There is no money. The NHS is getting by on a day by day basis, sometimes hour by hour (and I don’t see the worst of it). There is no pot of cash to be handed out on a decade long plan to prop up a half arsed higher education system.

The other problem is not necessarily all at the training stage, medical students are naive and if you open up the flood gates loads of people will poor in to spend 100k+ training to be “ a doctor!”. The NHS doesn’t need to fund people to train, they’ll pay themselves happily. There is however a tide of people leaving the profession, going overseas or locuming rather than progressing with training because frankly life as a doctor sucks a large part of the time. We had strikes last year, contracts imposed, working hours protection stripped away. The NHS doesn’t value its staff now, let alone potential staff.

 

[Uther]

Go private for the consultant appointment, costs a few hundred quid. Things will probably move a bit faster after that.

 

[Secret_Window]

In response to those saying to privatise the lot, that wouldn't necessarily be helpful, especially since a lot insurance based cover for health does not cover pre-existing conditions. If we move to that model especially one based on the US system, then people with crohns, diabetes, autoimmune disease, parkinsons, cancer are then screwed as they have no cover and are unable to afford to pay for the treatments for their conditions, which is why they say in the US more people go bankrupt from healthcare costs than anywhere else in the world.

The NHS isn't perfect yes, and there are tons of areas it needs to improve, but I don't think anyone would agree it is fair to say to someone who has cancer or parkinsons for example that they should be discriminated against because of their pre-existing condition through an insurance based system, that is just uncaring, unthinking and damn right cruel and wrong - although nothing does surprise me these days.

 

[Kill_Phil]

With the above poster. NHS gets its bad press but on the whole its a great service that we take for granted.

People complain about the waits and want instant access but as a nation we aren't willing to pay for it. Sure you get quicker access with private insurance for one off illnesses but good luck if youre ever unfortunate to get a long term health problem. Just take a look at USA with a cost of $2K dollars just for an MRI scan...

 

[Secret_Window]

With the above poster. NHS gets its bad press but on the whole its a great service that we take for granted.

People complain about the waits and want instant access but as a nation we aren't willing to pay for it. Sure you get quicker access with private insurance for one off illnesses but good luck if youre ever unfortunate to get a long term health problem. Just take a look at USA with a cost of $2K dollars just for an MRI scan...

Exactly, which why I think it is insane for people to suggest it. But in my experience it seems that the people saying it don't have any long term or pre-existing health issues to begin with, so it is OK for them to suggest it as it doesn't affect them.

 

[Dis86]

Now I totally agree with you about the solution to NHS staffing be increased training of home grown doctors in part.

What I don’t really agree with is the NHS budget being the source of that, firstly the NHS bursary for doctors was peanuts even when it was in place (it may have been means tested but most of us got £1k a year for 3 of our 6 years). Nurses did better out of it if my memory serves.
It got dumped because the NHS is there to provide healthcare and has been underfunded to the point of breaking. There is no money. The NHS is getting by on a day by day basis, sometimes hour by hour (and I don’t see the worst of it). There is no pot of cash to be handed out on a decade long plan to prop up a half arsed higher education system.

The other problem is not necessarily all at the training stage, medical students are naive and if you open up the flood gates loads of people will poor in to spend 100k+ training to be “ a doctor!”. The NHS doesn’t need to fund people to train, they’ll pay themselves happily. There is however a tide of people leaving the profession, going overseas or locuming rather than progressing with training because frankly life as a doctor sucks a large part of the time. We had strikes last year, contracts imposed, working hours protection stripped away. The NHS doesn’t value its staff now, let alone potential staff.

The thing is though that the cash is there. It just needs to stop being wasted elsewhere. I keep using IT as an example as I'm given details of it on an almost daily basis.

Know how much it cost to change a £10 mouse? The £10 mouse actually costs nearly £27 through the approved/agreed supplier. It can't be purchased by the IT tech that needs it. It has to be purchased by a purchasing rep (additional cost and time). It then can't just be sent to the GP's practice where it's required as said GP refused to plug it in with...and I quote "i'm here to treat patients, not PCs". It has to be delivered to the IT hub which is in Teesside. Fortunately they keep a stockpile there so no actual delay. It was required at a GP's practice in Berwick. That's over 100 miles. An IT tech had to drive that and back, so that's £80.00 in mileage plus their time. It took about 5 hours so by the time you factor in lunch and breaks over 6. The IT tech in question lives in Newcastle. He had to drive from Newcastle to Teesside in the morning - but because he can log on from home and check his job queue that hours drive from home to work counts as working time. That's a full day therefore for a single IT tech to change a mouse. BTW he's a contractor on £300 a day. By the time all is said and done that's nearly £500.00 to change a £10.00 mouse. Plus several hours of missed appointments in the morning from the GP.

Now I think we can probably safely assume that things like that don't just happen up here and I know that they're not one-offs.

Another classic that they've recently had there is they were told they were overstaffed with techs and had to get rid of one. Know what the solution was instead of getting rid of the contractors? They promoted the person who had the lowest close out rate (the most incompetent) to a more senior position! Now no longer a tech they did what they were told. Didn't actually save any money - ended up costing the NHS more infact...but nobody has questioned it!

 

[JRS]

I will caution those who would say 'do what you can to go private', private doesn't always mean better care than you'd receive under NHS treatment. Quick story - old friend of mine had Bupa medical cover through work, was injured at work, had to have an operation to stick a plate in his lower back. The very fancy private treatment that the company he worked for paid very good money to Bupa for over the years left him with MRSA post-op. Did Bupa cover the cost of sorting out the post-op infection? Did the same private hospital that gave him MRSA fix their ****-up? No. The NHS hospital down the road sorted it. Bupa essentially washed their hands¹ of him as soon as they found out he had MRSA - after all, you can't be admitted to their hospitals if you've got MRSA...even if you got the MRSA infection from that hospital.

Lots of people like to dogpile on the NHS. Thing is, the private cover that they hold up as being so much better seems to disappear bloody quick when something goes backside-over-teakettle...and it's the NHS who end up having to deal with it.

Another mildly amusing Bupa note - cover with them used to be a perk of working for British Coal, and when my dad was working for them he was offered cover...right up until they were told that my mum was pregnant with me. Bupa, in almost so many words, told pa that they didn't want none o' dat. They apparently drew the line at anything more challenging than an ingrowing toenail back in '83

¹ - If only the Bupa 'healthcare professionals' had washed their hands, eh? *sarcastic chortle*

 

[Angilion]

[..]
I wish we could [go private] , the cost for the op etc and all the aftercare she would need from the op works out at around £18k, we don't have that kind of money available to us. Insurance is useless, because for pre-conditions they are not covered

Some while ago, I was given a provisional appointment to probably see a consultant on the NHS a year later. A year. I was worried it was cancer (it wasn't and the GP who initially examined me said it wasn't, but I was worried), so I wasn't content with waiting for a year.

I borrowed some money and saw the same consultant privately just for the consultation. They then referred it back to the NHS and I had an operation on the NHS a week or two later. The NHS delay was only in the consultation phase. You might be able to do the same thing, possibly. It's worth looking into. That would make the cost hundreds rather than thousands.

 

[Freebird101]

I will caution those who would say 'do what you can to go private', private doesn't always mean better care than you'd receive under NHS treatment. Quick story - old friend of mine had Bupa medical cover through work, was injured at work, had to have an operation to stick a plate in his lower back. The very fancy private treatment that the company he worked for paid very good money to Bupa for over the years left him with MRSA post-op. Did Bupa cover the cost of sorting out the post-op infection? Did the same private hospital that gave him MRSA fix their ****-up? No. The NHS hospital down the road sorted it. Bupa essentially washed their hands¹ of him as soon as they found out he had MRSA - after all, you can't be admitted to their hospitals if you've got MRSA...even if you got the MRSA infection from that hospital.

Lots of people like to dogpile on the NHS. Thing is, the private cover that they hold up as being so much better seems to disappear bloody quick when something goes backside-over-teakettle...and it's the NHS who end up having to deal with it.

Another mildly amusing Bupa note - cover with them used to be a perk of working for British Coal, and when my dad was working for them he was offered cover...right up until they were told that my mum was pregnant with me. Bupa, in almost so many words, told pa that they didn't want none o' dat. They apparently drew the line at anything more challenging than an ingrowing toenail back in '83

¹ - If only the Bupa 'healthcare professionals' had washed their hands, eh? *sarcastic chortle*

Only anecdotal but I've heard a lot of similar stories of private being great for routine stuff but if there's any serious complications it gets transferred to an NHS hospital.
One problem I see frequently is private care homes/staff not training staff/ taking responsibility for dealing with routine falls and calling out emergency ambulances rather than employing nurses, effectively using public services to cover areas of care that would be reasonable to expect them to cover at the tax payers expense.

 

[dowie]

I will caution those who would say 'do what you can to go private', private doesn't always mean better care than you'd receive under NHS treatment. Quick story - old friend of mine had Bupa medical cover through work, was injured at work, had to have an operation to stick a plate in his lower back. The very fancy private treatment that the company he worked for paid very good money to Bupa for over the years left him with MRSA post-op. Did Bupa cover the cost of sorting out the post-op infection? Did the same private hospital that gave him MRSA fix their ****-up? No. The NHS hospital down the road sorted it. Bupa essentially washed their hands¹ of him as soon as they found out he had MRSA - after all, you can't be admitted to their hospitals if you've got MRSA...even if you got the MRSA infection from that hospital.

Lots of people like to dogpile on the NHS. Thing is, the private cover that they hold up as being so much better seems to disappear bloody quick when something goes backside-over-teakettle...and it's the NHS who end up having to deal with it.

Easy solution to that - go private with the NHS!



You can do that with Bupa, Axa etc... plenty of private hospitals (especially outside London) are just small, basic places - fine if you need to see a consultant quickly, get some tests done or minor low risk procedure. If you have something serious + you don't want to wait around then get on a private wing at a decent NHS hospital - you get the quick treatment and if something goes wrong then you're not in some naff private facility waiting for an ambulance but you're already in the big NHS hospital that can sort it. For example if you had something wrong with your heart then you could see a specialist at say the Royal Brompton Hospital, you'd go for consultations/tests in their private consulting bit (either at the hospital itself or at their consulting rooms just off Harley Street) without having to wait and if you needed a procedure then you'd get it done in the main hospital itself which is a world class facility for that stuff, again without having to wait long.

For long term chronic conditions you're better off on the NHS full stop IMHO, I mean private insurance will kick up a stink about that stuff anyway - you have to be careful with how you claim for repeated referrals etc.. once a condition is chronic - it needs to be say an "acute flare up" of the condition. But for long term stuff that can get complicated I reckon you're better off being managed by a team of people where all the consultants/registrars have a meeting together to discuss cases, test results/scans etc.. as opposed to private where you're just putting your faith in one individual (and at best he/she might ask a colleague for an opinion).

 

[gandhi]

The nhs is being deliberately under funded to create these problems so it can be turned into a privatised operation. There’s plenty of cash around to support it, it just needs to be allocated sensibly. Brexit, HS2 and Trident spring to mind. It’s basic Tory policy, get rid of anything publicly owned so the rich can get richer...

Railways
Utilities
Royal Mail

What bothers me is that people are either too stupid to see what’s going on or don’t care.

Sad state of affairs.

 

[Ace Modder]

The nhs is being deliberately under funded to create these problems so it can be turned into a privatised operation. There’s plenty of cash around to support it, it just needs to be allocated sensibly. Brexit, HS2 and Trident spring to mind. It’s basic Tory policy, get rid of anything publicly owned so the rich can get richer...

What bothers me is that people are either too stupid to see what’s going on or don’t care.

Sad state of affairs.

I have always thought this too. But what we/I do to stop it? Nothing!

 

[dowie]

Well there was a party at the last election promising to put a penny on income tax to increase funding for the NHS and to oppose Brexit, two things that a substantial portion of the population ostensibly would support... but instead most voters just voted as they usually do, treating the whole thing like supporting a football team.

 

[Screeeech]

Well there was a party at the last election promising to put a penny on income tax to increase funding for the NHS and to oppose Brexit, two things that a substantial portion of the population ostensibly would support... but instead most voters just voted as they usually do, treating the whole thing like supporting a football team.

Things like that make me wish, we could just hand off all of our political affairs to a robot - so it'll just enforce the most sensible policy for everyone, rather than allowing all the issues to be voted on by people who simply have no idea, have agendas that benefit only them - or treat the whole thing like a football team.

Saying that, I don't know **** about politics, so it would probably be an even bigger disaster..

 

[Jumper118]

But you get a healthcare system that runs individuals into the ground instead. Whilst a whole load of profit ontop for private companies. Someone ends up paying.

wrong. with decent competition and decent health insurance companies. the prices will be much lower than the tax you pay the the NHS, and that money goes back into the economy rather than into a giant mess.

 

[jonneymendoza]

I have always thought this too. But what we/I do to stop it? Nothing!

You could just jump ship to another country(if u can)? im debating it myself as there is a lot of things broken here in the UK which is sad.

I cant put a gun to everyone here in the UK and tell them to stop this nonsense brexit, nhs etc etc. i cant control or dictate what happens to the NHS etc but i can at least jump off of a sinking ship(uk) and look after myself in a diffeent country that offers and meets my needs such as decent pension, healthcare, stable economy/jobs etc

 

[iamtheoneneo]

The nhs is being deliberately under funded to create these problems so it can be turned into a privatised operation. There’s plenty of cash around to support it, it just needs to be allocated sensibly. Brexit, HS2 and Trident spring to mind. It’s basic Tory policy, get rid of anything publicly owned so the rich can get richer...

Railways
Utilities
Royal Mail

What bothers me is that people are either too stupid to see what’s going on or don’t care.

Sad state of affairs.

This has been banded around for what the last 20 years and look the NHS is still here
If this was true the NHS would be private by now.

The problem is an aging population and our rates not increasing to compensate for the additional strain placed on the NHS compared to 10 ,20 ,30 years ago.

 

[Housey]

Private gets you up the queue and nicer surroundings, but for anything emergency or life long it tends to not want to know and the people you see are by and large the same people.

 

[Secret_Window]

wrong. with decent competition and decent health insurance companies. the prices will be much lower than the tax you pay the the NHS, and that money goes back into the economy rather than into a giant mess.

That still doesn't solve the situation regarding those that have long term or pre-existing conditions which most health insurance would charge a premium for or not cover altogether.

Unless you have any better ideas, I don't think that will be cheaper and better for people who are ill.