UN Migration Pact - Criticising Migration = Hate Crime

VincentHanna said:
Interesting you all ignored Irish Tom's post.
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Not that surprising though. I think they've already made their minds up. ;)

BowdonUK said:
I can already see the problem just by the quote of the document you made. There are conflicting lines that will mean this is enforced selectively. Some people already can't tell the difference between something being racist and people having a discussion.
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Well, it's a non-binding agreement that is meant to act as a framework for signatory states to use when producing legislation, so no doubt it will be implemented selectively and with different interpretations in different countries. That doesn't mean it's going to directly lead to laws that turn criticism of immigration into hate crimes. If such a thing did happen (which I highly doubt), it wouldn't be because a country had signed up to this compact, it would be because something had gone horribly wrong with the governance of whichever country implemented such a law.


BowdonUK said:
Saying you don't want any more immigration is not racist. But I suspect even on this forum some would disagree, and there is the problem.
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Saying you don't want any more immigration is not racist in and of itself, unless you don't want any more immigration for racist reasons…

There are plenty of valid arguments for controlled immigration based on skills, and I can understand people's fears about completely uncontrolled migration. However, stopping immigration entirely would be next to impossible and would be terrible for the economy.

bowey said:
This thread will be deleted by the end of the night guaranteed.
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I'm interested in why you think this?
 
I'll bite and say that given our current legal structure that this is pretty much redundant anyway in the UK given we come down pretty hard on hate crimes of any description these days.

"Shaping perceptions" sounds wishy-washy and ominous to me and who decides what is discriminatory when a complaint is made?

I also see the "especially women" part as sexist. If that had been, "children" I probably wouldn't have batted an eyelid.

I see the benefits of immigration to this country but I would worry that a previous thread I posted regarding a run-in with some particularly scummy and obnoxious neighbors would fall foul of this. "Our evidence states that people from this country are a net benefit, therefore your comments constitute a hate crime".

Pardon me for being extremely suspicious of new layers of legislation given that you can be hauled up before the Courts for making a dog do a Nazi salute as part of a joke these days.
 
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Irish_Tom said:
You're right, it is more than that:



I don't see anything in there about making legitimate criticism of migrants a hate crime. In fact, it specifically protects freedom of expression as well as open and free debate.

If you have only watched the YT video then it sounds terrifying, but if you read the document there isn't much in there to back up the claims in the video.

Sure, you can twist it to sound insidious (as Craracus has already shown) but then the same is true for practically anything. If you take it literally, it's not the fascist manifesto some people in here believe it to be.

After all, isn't that how we debate online now? A literal interpretation of every single syllable because the art of nuance and inference have been completely lost? Where anything suggestable gets twisted into an argument around semantics, or when someone calls someone else out on the obvious meaning of what they have written, they simply reply with "I didn't say that".



Those men are MEPs, specifically MEPs who are part of a group called Europe of Nations and Freedom, a group made up primarily of French and Dutch right-wing Nationalists. They held a press conference, speaking out against the UN Compact, so they aren't dictating anything, they are expressing their concerns (with a fair bit of spin) against it. I thought you'd quite like them. :p
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So as usual, moral of the story is that YouTube videos are useless for facts?

Shock horror!
 
BowdonUK said:
The thread isn't 3 pages long yet and we already have someone conflating debates about mass immigration with actual violence :rolleyes:

This is going to end well.
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The conflation appears to be in the video in the first post.

The compact appears to revolve around creating laws against violence and hate speech against immigrants - something the UK already has laws covering - yet the politician in the video appears to have confused that with criticising immigration.
 
nitram100 said:
Reassuring my choice to emigrate to Australia next year. Europe is just one big giant **** hole.
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So your dislike of immigration means you are going to emigrate?

You also do realize Australia has its own laws against racism and hate crimes?
 
I am married to a migrant. But this compact worries and actually scares me. The wording is so deliberately vague that it is absolutely intended to sqaush dissent. What right do others have to tell us what we can think and say by bringing in such laws? This is intended to shape peoples thoughts and opinions by blocking reasonable discussion either in person or in the media.

What I am angry about is not that this is related to migrants, but it is about forcing people to think and act in a certain way. It is about controlling discussion amongst people and in the media. The state is backed by laws which are backed by implied violence. I have always considered myself a very reasonable person (I'm sure we all think that of ourselves). But, as I head into my 50's, for the first period ever in my life I am now prepared to get on the streets and protest about how successive governments have been curtailing our freedom of expression. Maybe I am now that stereotypical middle aged white male. But I can't stay quiet when the freedoms of myself and my children are at stake.

And no I am not in favour of abusing migrants. My wife is one. My children's mother is one. That's not what I am angry about. I am angry at this country, and Europe as a whole, becoming a less free nation. Freedoms are lost when we don't stand up to those taking them away. Several of my eastern european friends, who have lived under communism, can't believe we are allowing ourselves to go down the same route without standing up to it.


This right here is state controlled media. Scary, scary stuff:

c) Promote independent, objective and quality reporting of media outlets, including internet-based information, including by sensitizing and educating media professionals on migration-related issues and terminology, investing in ethical reporting standards and advertising, and stopping allocation of public funding or material support to media outlets that systematically promote intolerance, xenophobia, racism and other forms of discrimination towards migrants, in full respect for the freedom of the media
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Irish_Tom said:
I don't see anything in there about making legitimate criticism of migrants a hate crime. In fact, it specifically protects freedom of expression as well as open and free debate.
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You won't find anything in the malicious communications act about prosecuting people for jokes video recorded and shared online (nazi saluting pug) or repeating song lyrics (19 year old prosecuted for posting rap lyrics online)

Both of these cases show the law is quite selective in its approach.. . the rap song in question isn't banned or proscribed in the UK and big comedians like Frankie Boyle and Jimmy Carr, I would suggest, have made 'offensive' jokes that have been similarly shared on the Internet.
 
Is this protecting legal or illegal migrants?

If illegal, what on earth can the agenda behind all this be other than to encourage the peoples of the developing world to move on mass to the developed world?

Are they trying to bring down Europe and the US and repeat the horrors of the 20th Century? We are at a crossroads of AI and automation where we will no longer need as many migrant workers and we'll also be able to help the third world develop. Mass movement of people putting undue stress and strain on the developed world will only be detrimental for everyone.
 
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D.P. said:
So your dislike of immigration means you are going to emigrate?

You also do realize Australia has its own laws against racism and hate crimes?
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I don't think Nitram did (in this thread at least) express a dislike of all immigration?

Maybe its the high altitudes in your tax avoiding, on an industrial scale, haven that are interfering with your cognitive functions?

Let's not forget that Switzerland has previously voted, via referendum, for some rather 'racist' legislation and is having a bit of a wobble about whether it will sign up to this compact ....... but its OK because you claim you don't support all that.. . you only choose to live there (is the reverse of the 'some of my friends are black argument'?) , out of all the countries on the planet, whilst having to be chased to pay back money you owed the UK goverment.

It is if course consistent to be against this compact, with it's call for 'regular' migration (that means mass migration for anyone that hasn't worked it out yet and mass migration only from certain points of origin to certain destinations) and calls for support for migrants 'regardless of their status' (that's like the euphemism 'undocumented' migrant isn't it.. .. which is to say illegal migrants in normal speak) whilst still thinking that controlled and limited migration can be a good thing.

But please dont let me interrupt you any further before you go back to lecturing us on progressive tax policies and social justice interspaced with boasting about the low taxes in your current country of residence
 
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Signed.

Its hard not to swear about this but **** me this is wrong in so many ways.

I don't know what is going on in the world anymore.
RaohNS said:
I wonder what the country will be like in 30years time.
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Hopefully I should be dead by then as am 46 now, its just my daughter I fear for.

A little feng shui is required I think, before I go nuts about this.
 
Amp34 said:
The conflation appears to be in the video in the first post.

The compact appears to revolve around creating laws against violence and hate speech against immigrants - something the UK already has laws covering - yet the politician in the video appears to have confused that with criticising immigration.
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I think the worry is that this pact is going to bulk up laws that don't have a proper definition of the offence apart from vague references and feelings.. We know that these laws are already being misused here already. As I typed in the thread earlier if, for example, I didn't want anymore immigration to this country then some people would say that is racism. We've already seen it, hell, we've already seen the pro-EU people saying Leave people are racist when all the european immigrants are white! It would be like a Carry On film if it wasnt so serious.

robfosters said:
You’re all wasting your breath, the UK has already confirmed they will be signing it.
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Sadly you're right, and its not surprising. If the British government can sell us out for 2 pieces of silver they will.
 
itchy said:
Signed.
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Signed to be ignored. I just wonder how much of this is Frankfurt School stuff and how much is hyperbole.

Its hard not to swear about this but **** me this is wrong in so many ways.
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In the West govts have been working against the interests of their population for decades. 40years at minimum.

Hopefully I should be dead by then as am 46 now, its just my daughter I fear for.
.
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Don't kill yourself off too quick.

We often try to make the world better for our children, but according to something posted on PJW twitter a couple of weeks ago there are an awful lot of European leaders who have no children (May/Merkel/Macron/Junker/Sturgeon), and as such have no skin in the game so why should they care?
 
I never used to think the kids thing made any difference, but now I am changing my mind. So many of the leaders are childless, and it does make me wonder if their sheer narcissism and lack of familial values is playing a part in the shocking policy making.

How could Angela Merkel look a father of a raped and murdered 14/15 yr old German girl in the eye? How could she live with that?

Quite comfortably it seems.
 
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