Too white, Too Straight.

Nasher said:
Virtue signalling gone mad.

"Look we have X black and gay people, so we're super diverse, praise us on facebook!"

...Is what it's about.
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Unfortunately it's not. There is a huge amount of pressure exerted on organisations and politicians from interest groups. This is primarily media led.

If a company or organisation doesn't have the golden diversity ratios then they get pressured through the media to change it. They then need to announce it loudly to counter the initial bad publicity
 
Nasher said:
Virtue signalling gone mad.

"Look we have X black and gay people, so we're super diverse, praise us on facebook!"

...Is what it's about.
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I guess they haven't realised that the modern Facebook "activists" are insatiable. Even if they've got X black/trans/whatever people, then they'll be asking, "Why don't you have a black/trans CEO?" Or "Why did you replace your black/trans CEO with a white guy? That's a step backwards!" "Why aren't you making products promoting the BAME/gay scene?" "Why aren't you publicly decrying this other company that doesn't have a black/trans CEO?"

You just can't please them and they're pretty much all just bored Mumsnet addicts anyhow.
 
FoxEye said:
I guess they haven't realised that the modern Facebook "activists" are insatiable. Even if they've got X black/trans/whatever people, then they'll be asking, "Why don't you have a black/trans CEO?" Or "Why did you replace your black/trans CEO with a white guy? That's a step backwards!" "Why aren't you making products promoting the BAME/gay scene?" "Why aren't you publicly decrying this other company that doesn't have a black/trans CEO?"

You just can't please them and they're pretty much all just bored Mumsnet addicts anyhow.
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Yea it's ridiculous. They are a tiny percentage of people but still pandering them.

We're seeing companies lose lots of money because they are aiming products at these people, then the masses don't buy their stuff. Like what happened to EA with BFV.

They could just ignore them, ignore social media and carry on as before. Most people can see how stupid it all is.
 
RaohNS said:
After reading the Gulag Archipelago I often wonder what would have happened if the people just said no to the things being committed against them. It's when you don't make a stand, eventually somewhere down the road you look back to regret it. You have a responsibility toward your future self.

Volume 2 just now... Harrowing stuff.
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If they had said no, they would have been sent to the gulag all the sooner. Tyranny does not tolerate dissent.
 
CREATIVE!11 said:
Yep to be quite frank, affirmative action is egregious.

Let's fix discrimination by......... discriminating?

It's circular retarded logic.
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You're making the mistake of assuming that the point of it is to end discrimination. That's just a politically useful lie. The point of it is to increase irrational prejudice and discrimination and to destroy the very idea of equality. It's an extremely effective tool for doing so, which is why it has been used throughout recorded history by politically astute bigots.

If a person wants to impose irrational prejudice and discrimination they must give some reason for it. That boils down to one of two basic excuses - either the target group deserve it because they're inferior or the target group deserve it because they're privileged. Often both excuses are used, but the latter is usually more effective and is always more effective until the irrational prejudice and discrimination is very deeply engrained. In addition, using the latter excuse makes it possible to completely corrupt and destroy the very idea of equality by redefining "equality", "diversity", "tolerance", "liberalism" and suchlike things to mean the opposite of their real meanings. That creates a false impression of much wider support for fashionable irrational prejudice than that which actually exists because all the people who continue to use the words with their genuine meanings can be passed off as supporting the fashionable irrational prejudice, anti-diveristy, intolerance and authoritarianism. It also strips away the words needed to talk or even think about equality, etc, which makes it far harder for people to promote it. It's a masterpiece of political manipulation to impose irrational prejudice and discrimination.

It's very far from being "circular retarded logic". It only appears that way if you assume that the goal of these people is equality, which is simply wrong. Their goal is the particular strain of irrational prejudice and discrimination that they favour.

It's not new. You can, for example, see it in medieval European writing promoting anti-Semitism. Or early Christian writing promoting prejudice and discrimination against everyone who isn't Christian. That's just off the top of my head - I'd bet good money it goes all the way back through recorded history and beyond. I wouldn't be in the slightest bit surprised to find out that it was done by clans of Homo Erectus long before Homo Sapiens even existed. It's simple and effective if the goal is to promote irrational prejudice and discrimination.
 
233 said:
but if i turn round tommorow and say women are underrepresented so recruit from female only shortlists thats perfectly fine?
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No, as the court case on the op's article clearly demonstrates.
 
Nasher said:
Yea it's ridiculous. They are a tiny percentage of people but still pandering them.

We're seeing companies lose lots of money because they are aiming products at these people, then the masses don't buy their stuff. Like what happened to EA with BFV.

They could just ignore them, ignore social media and carry on as before. Most people can see how stupid it all is.
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EA with BFV who ignored the elephant in the room and blamed poor sales on a lack of battle royale mode!
 
platinum87 said:
If i might trouble you to explain what is exactly wrong with BFV.

The last i played was BF2, and a mod of it called project reality.
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Well, simply put BF has always been a more realistic simulation of war than the likes of CoD. So this time around they've binned that in favour of pandering to certain groups and thus denting the immersion. Female frontline soldiers, who as far as I'm aware were only ever used in limited numbers by the Russians, are available for all with a full sp campaign focusing on them.
The next point is that the poster person for the game, far from representing the average soldier, is a disabled woman.

When people complained about the focus being on this small and incredibly unlikely demographic EA responded with "either accept it or don’t buy the game". So people didn't buy the game...

EA yet again demonstrating that they just don't understand their core demographic and in pushing to appease a minority have isolated their majority. They then doubled down which just annoyed people even more!
 
chroniclard said:
Seems legit.
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There's a huge push for getting women into engineering at the moment, so if you're up against a few female candidates, you ain't getting the job.

Was the same at my university - women were more likely to get onto the course with lower grades (I.e. I have female friends that got unconditional offers for an engineering degree even though their predicted grades were less than required, and yet there were males that didn't get unconditional offers with the same grade, same course).

See it often in IT too - lots of awards for females accomplishing things, yet males that have been doing the same thing for years are just doing their job

I don't get funny over it, as it's just one of those things, but it definitely happens a lot more than I thought it would :)
 
Whole heartedly agree that best person should be employed for job without fear of retribution or shaming for the employer but I'd like to see more done to try to get the grassroots problems of where certain people are underrepresented be this gender or ethnicity.
 
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Nasher said:
I say that if they are hiring people based on race and not merit alone, then they are actually abusing them. As well as potentially putting someone in a position which is way over their head (like Diane Abbot).
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Go to agree with this one, whilst they may receive the same pay as that is what is advertised with the job could this be stretching their abilities too far, whilst I appreciate people can develop and learn in employment, could this then result in dismissal on a performance related basis? Dismissal could then be looked at as being discrimination in some way if a white or female/male person is then employed?

Please excuse my ignorance in mental health here, but is there the risk that performance related dismissal could cause mental health problems?

I do start to think that the interview process should be interviewing someone behind a screen so that the people conducting the interview never see the person, changing of their name to a number to remove any form of identification through their name, although could this then be interpreted as slavery, "they're not people they're just seen as a number, this is slavery". Then the difficulty is their accent, when I've done interviews one of the considerations is how they respond to a question, so for a customer service point of view could there be a change of tone when being sympathetic towards someone, another consideration is they may know and understand English, but when they reply to questions can they be understood, could this then be seen as a form of discrimination, particularly when over the phone is the customer able to understand them?
 
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Don't forget that Labour are a party who want to put pressure on companies to fulfil racial (and gender) quotas or face fines and the withholding of contracts...

Labour, a party who could quite conceivably be in charge of the country in the next few years, has an equalities minister who wants to financially penalise companies that don't close their "gender pay gap" (presumably on the basis that she thinks such disparities are significantly down to societal discrimination rather then inhernet differences, in average, between the sexes) she has also indicated that she would act in a similiar manner with regards to the supposed 'racial pay gap' ...

If you are going to make it a matter of govermental policy to force companies to change their hiring practices based on a assertion of unwarranted discrimination being the cause for any apparent disparity in distribution you had better be making that decision on the basis of some sound evidence rather than uniformed pseudo science.

Dawn Butler said:
And to ensure women are not held back, we will take action where this government has failed to do so and tackle the gender pay gap here in the UK. Under Labour’s new plans, we will require all large private and public companies, with over 250 employees, to prove their gender equality practices or face further auditing and fines.

Employers that meet the criteria will obtain government certification and will be considered for government procurement contracts.
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This cancer runs deep in our society and it has its grubby hands very close to the wheels of power.
 
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Jamauk said:
Go to agree with this one, whilst they may receive the same pay as that is what is advertised with the job could this be stretching their abilities too far, whilst I appreciate people can develop and learn in employment, could this then result in dismissal on a performance related basis? Dismissal could then be looked at as being discrimination in some way if a white or female/male person is then employed?

Please excuse my ignorance in mental health here, but is there the risk that performance related dismissal could cause mental health problems?
?
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There was an episode of "Law and Order" where just this issue was raised.

I cant off hand remember what the offense was that the Man was being charged with. But the defense was that, as a Black Man, he had been put under intolerable stress as a result of being over-promoted by a cooperation that was keen to exploit his presence in order to demonstrate how "Right-On" they were.

I am sure it happens too!

It is also worrying from a customer perspective too.

Consider medicine. I am absolutely fine with Indian/Chinese Doctors (Long history of advanced medicine, much longer than in the west really, particularly plastic surgery)

But a Black Doctor? Is he competent, or just there to make up the numbers?

It is worrying for patients and puts the Black doctors under immense pressure.

Not really fair to anybody really. :/
 
Caracus2k said:
Don't forget that Labour are a party who want to put pressure on companies to fulfil racial (and gender) quotas or face fines and the withholding of contracts...

Labour, a party who could quite conceivably be in charge of the country in the next few years, has an equalities minister who wants to financially penalise companies that don't close their "gender pay gap" (presumably on the basis that she thinks such disparities are significantly down to societal discrimination rather then inhernet differences, in average, between the sexes) she has also indicated that she would act in a similiar manner with regards to the supposed 'racial pay gap' ...

If you are going to make it a matter of govermental policy to force companies to change their hiring practices based on a assertion of unwarranted discrimination being the cause for any apparent disparity in distribution you had better be making that decision on the basis of some sound evidence rather than uniformed pseudo science.




This cancer runs deep in our society and it has its grubby hands very close to the wheels of power.
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I've never heard of a racial pay gap anywhere I've worked, or gender pay gap actually. It's always been a set wage for everyone.

They seem to be basically comparing lower paid jobs to higher paid ones, or people working different hours. I don't know what they expect companies to do. I suppose companies could pay some guys a little extra to declare themselves as women to fudge the stats lol. I would.

Labour just don't seem to have a grasp on reality anymore.
 
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Orionaut said:
Consider medicine. I am absolutely fine with Indian/Chinese Doctors (Long history of advanced medicine, much longer than in the west really, particularly plastic surgery)

But a Black Doctor? Is he competent, or just there to make up the numbers?

It is worrying for patients and puts the Black doctors under immense pressure.

Not really fair to anybody really. :/
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It depends whether the black doctor was trained in the UK (or any other developed nation with the same standards as ours) or whether they got their medical qualifications from a country with a less stringent approach to training.

The same would apply to any other doctor, regardless of their ethnic background.

I find your view rather odd.
 
MrRockliffe said:
There's a huge push for getting women into engineering at the moment, so if you're up against a few female candidates, you ain't getting the job.

Was the same at my university - women were more likely to get onto the course with lower grades (I.e. I have female friends that got unconditional offers for an engineering degree even though their predicted grades were less than required, and yet there were males that didn't get unconditional offers with the same grade, same course).

See it often in IT too - lots of awards for females accomplishing things, yet males that have been doing the same thing for years are just doing their job

I don't get funny over it, as it's just one of those things, but it definitely happens a lot more than I thought it would :)
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And the gender pay gap doesn't exist in most organisations to any meaningful degree once experience is factored in. Anecdotally I'd argue to opposite. Take part time hours as an example. In my experience this is entirely taken by female parents who as a result leave at 2:30pm or 3:00pm on the dot to manage a school pickup (which is entirely correct). Unfortunately the predominantly male full timers are frowned upon for leaving on time and end up doing 30 minutes+ of unpaid overtime daily. Absolute salaries in this organisation were confirmed to be equal for male/females, however this mindset results in males working for a lower hourly equivalent on average.

I've also seen companies actively push to promote females into senior management, with examples of very well qualified male applicants being overlooked for less capable and experienced females. I will always advocate equal opportunities, which but once you are in the process the job should got to the most capable candidate, regardless of sex, orientation, race, disability or religion.
 
Nasher said:
I've never heard of a racial pay gap anywhere I've worked, or gender pay gap actually. It's always been a set wage for everyone.

They seem to be basically comparing lower paid jobs to higher paid ones, or people working different hours. I don't know what they expect companies to do. <snip>.
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Promote BAME people until they occupy most of the top jobs?

Ensure that if posts are graded, BAME employees are always awarded pay at the top of their grade.

Otherwise negotiate higher pay offers for BAME candidates.

Ensure that you fill the lowest paid jobs with white boys. Fits the narrative that the (male) natives are thick and work-shy, which is nice.
 
Years ago I saw this happen myself. Obviously I can't confirm 100% that is what happened, but when I was 24/25 I really wanted to be a postman, I applied for a few posts and always made it to interview and smashed it.

I was never given the job and could never understand why, I was young, fit, intelligent etc and I knew for a fact that only 3 or 4 people were interviewed. I was exactly what I thought they were looking for.

Few weeks afer the job interview, it hit me why when I saw our two new local delivery workers, a 40-50 year old somalian man and a muslim woman. So much for white privilege!

At that point I had enough of the blatant racism /sexism and knew I was never going to get anywhere in a borough such as Harrow, the most ethnically diverse borough in the UK obsessed with appeasing minorities and hitting targets to look good. So I retrained to be a registered nurse, where I would be in the minority and seen as something different/unique as a white man. That was 7 years ago and it's the best thing I ever did, I've been offered every single job I interviewed for within 1 hr of interviewing and currently awaiting my 189 visa to come through, then I am out of this **** hole.
 
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