Motorsport Off Topic Thread

“Unfortunately, it is very much a fait accompli of technical matters, because our technicians say ‘we cannot for sure demonstrate as much as we should that they [Ferrari] were not legal’.”
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So they couldn't properly prove illegality, and Ferrari don't want them releasing exactly what was being done (presumably to protect IP).

This bit amused me:

[Todt] says he pushed Ferrari’s rivals to bring matters to a head by protesting the Maranello team.
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Gosh, it's funny, but I do seem to recall years ago when Jean Todt was named as FIA president that people on here and other forums screamed blue murder over it claiming that it was Yet Another Example Of Pro-Ferrari Bias™. And here we have the very same Todt having urged other teams to protest Ferrari...
 
So the FIA believed Ferrari were ‘cheating’ but any and all tests they conducted in line with the regulations as they stood showed the engine was legal. They could have spent millions taking it apart, dissecting it bit by bit, piece by piece but don’t really have the knowledge, finances or the facilities to do so AFAIK. So they approached a Ferrari, came to a deal where Ferrari would ‘stop’ cheating, without an admittance that they were of course, and everything was fine again. Except the teams didn’t like this one bit and were singing for Ferrari to be banned, disqualified and attacked with nuclear weapons (one of these may not be true).
 
Offered in return for the loan, which will reportedly be used to pay existing creditors, is the team's headquarters, its race entry, and much of the team's fleet of historic F1 cars.
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All that for £50m? Assuming they default, which they probably will. He's laughing all the way to the bank right now.
 
Honestly, I hope that Williams do default and Latifi takes ownership of the team. They could use a fresh breath of air like Racing Point / Team Stroll. Let's be honest, they can't do much worse than they are at the moment.
 
Who knows. Without COVID-19 they might have made a good job of exploiting what was to be the 2021 regulations. Despite the similarly bare coffers they did with the 2014 ones - helped by the power plant of course, but they were challenging Mercedes on certain tracks too. A resurgence was unlikely, but not impossible.

It's a shame when a historic team is in its dying days. It happened with Lotus (36 years), Brabham (29 years), Tyrrell (28 years), Ligier/Prost (25 years) and even Arrows (24 years), despite Walkinshaw's dodgy dealings. All bar Arrows won races or championships.

There's no immunity from hardship in racing, but it's these independent teams which have shaped F1 over the years more than most manufacturers, who, Ferrari aside, come and go as it suits them.



As a side note, I was genuinely impressed that Sauber have the 5th highest number of race starts. They're the only team of the dozens of minnows from the late 80s/early 90s which survives in a similar guise (Racing Point bare little comparison to their ancestors). Granted Sauber are branded as Alfa-Romeo at the moment, and was taken over by BMW for a few years, but it's been Sauber. Obviously there are many more races each season now than when the likes of Ferrari, McLaren and those above started, but even by season (BMW) Sauber aren't that far behind those listed above at 27 years old. Not bad for a tiny team based in a country which until recently had a long-term ban on all forms of circuit motorsport.
 
I hope Williams pull through in their current form. Anyone hoping otherwise is being disrespectful to Sir Frank.

As for number of race starts - depends how you count the numbers really. Do Mercedes get to count back to Tyrrell's first entry?
 
MagicBoy said:
Do Mercedes get to count back to Tyrrell's first entry?
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I wouldn't count them. BAR weren't the same team as Tyrrell (they used a different factory and only bought them for their entry and sold other assets), though I would say that Honda merely took over BAR. Brawn ran a Honda-designed car so I suppose I would count Mercedes as starting with BAR in 1999.

On that basis, in their current forms Red Bull are older, starting as Stewart GP in 1997 with each successor merely taking over what was already there, including carrying engine manufacturers over.

Racing Point have more connections with Jordan than Mercedes do with Tyrrell. Even through their numerous guises it was reported that the Jordan chassis were still used several years afterwards (presumably with strengthening) though Midland F1, Spyker F1 and still when Force India took over.
 
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ci_newman said:
Honestly, I hope that Williams do default and Latifi takes ownership of the team. They could use a fresh breath of air like Racing Point / Team Stroll. Let's be honest, they can't do much worse than they are at the moment.
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Sad as it is, I think I agree. I don't feel that there's a great deal of racing heritage remming at Williams other than the old cars and they just mortgaged all those, not to invest but to pay off debts. Williams are a hugely important part of my F1 upbringing, but they've been woeful in recent years. They squandered the huge advantage of the Mercedes engine in the V6 era, and failing to get a car to the first week of testing last year was inexcusable.
 
I'd like to think Senna dying too wouldn't have much to do with it. I didn't know anything about Roland Ratzenberger before 1994, but it was such a shock to everyone as it was still the first death at a GP since 1982.

Speaking of which, I remember the name Riccardo Paletti, another back marker just as much as I do Roland Ratzenberger. Similar to Ratzenberger, Paletti had died soon after what some consider to be another legend, Gilles Villeneuve. I don't remember the date he died though nor would I Ratzenberger if it wasn't just the day before Senna's death (which is such an easy date to remember).

How many will remember Jules Bianchi in 2041? Unlike Ratzenberger he was a promising youngster probably with a long future in F1 ahead of him, but when he crashed he'd done less then two seasons in another tiny team. I'd like to think we'll still be remembering him in 26 years.
 
I'll certainly remember Bianchi, as I met him in Barcelona a couple of months earlier. But I don't really remember drivers from before I was really interested in F1. Ratzenberger is a perfect case in point. I was watching F1 then but wasn't in to it as much as I am now. If Senna hadn't died the same weekend then I don't think I'd remember him.
 
I have always remembered Ratzenberger, I was racing (a different kind) on the day he died and we had the radio on whilst servicing the car. I feel his death has been totally overshadowed by Senna's and somewhat actually forgotten, you hear people talk about Senna at length yet Ratzenberger is hardly ever mentioned in the same conversation.
 
In retrospect the warning signs with Vettel were there when he was demolished by Ricciardo in 2014. Much like they were there when Alonso nearly went off the rails towards the end of the 2006 season. Time for Ferrari to pause, take a deep breath and nurture Leclerc for a couple of years. Hire any old guy to run the second car. Get the personnel together and the car to actually do the job and then go nuts. Steamroller the opposition 2002/2004 style.

Assuming the sport survives this enforced break, of course ;)
 
Good news, but interesting for Ferrari. Charles is undoubtedly quick but does he have the experience to lead a team? If I were Ferrari, I'd be knocking on Bottas's door.
 
JRS said:
In retrospect the warning signs with Vettel were there when he was demolished by Ricciardo in 2014. Much like they were there when Alonso nearly went off the rails towards the end of the 2006 season.
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I've said it before and I'll say it again, Vettel wasn't demolished by Ricciardo. The stats say he was, but in two of the races Ricciardo won, Vettel was ahead, with a team strategy mistake costing him one victory and a safety car coming out immediately after he'd passed pit entry the other. That one was particularly harsh as Ricciardo was miles behind him at the time, but was the first able to pit and he duly took the lead when the drivers ahead of him pitted the next lap.

I'm not sure anyone expected Ricciardo to take the fight to Vettel, but that was as much about the 2014 regulation changes as anything in my opinion. Vettel was unmatched in the exhaust-blown diffuser era - no other driver had the confidence Vettel had and it was a sight to behold, despite us all hoping his relative dominance would be challenged more often. Even his own teammate and championship rival stated "I can't do that", something a teammate never says. I don't think Ricciardo would have been anywhere near as strong in 2014 if the regulations had stayed the same.

Vettel's never looked at home in the hybrid era, and you could visibly see the pressure on him at Ferrari. I think he'll be relieved to step away in the long-run.

As for 2006, Alonso's title was won despite the FIA and Ferrari's overly close relationship (everyone remembers how close they were in the early 2000s; far more so than any perceived issues now). First with banning the mass damper mid-season, despite scrutineers saying it was legal and even with the FIA agreeing to it as it was developed - in the end FIA were appealing the decision of their own scrutineers! The second being one of the most ludicrous stewarding decisions I've ever seen, when Alonso was being penalised for driving flat out and being something like 5 seconds ahead of Massa in qualifying at Monza - something Ferrari claimed held up Massa, yet last year's qualifying showed exactly the opposite through everyone's desperation to get even a sniff of a slipstream.

I'm not sure quite where Alonso is supposed to have gone off the rails in 2006, towards the end or otherwise. Schumacher made more mistakes than Alonso over the season, crashing in races in Melbourne, twice in Hungary and again in his final race in Brazil. I don't recall Alonso making any serious mistakes all season - indeed it was probably one of the best campaigns in recent-ish years.
 
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