AMD Zen 3 (5000 Series), rumored 17% IPC gain.

[pc-guy]

The thing is you only see large IPC boosts when the architecture is new. Especially for a ryzen - AMD wanted Ryzen out of the door ASAP to bring in money - that left a lot of places in the architecture to improve - that's what we've seen with zEn+ and zen2. Zen3 brings more tweaks. But I could also believe they are running out of big things to change. We saw this with Intel - they brought out Skylake and Intel was able to tweak some things for a couple generations and after that they had done everything they could and it's flatlined every since.

Now Zen4 May only have a small IPC gain but AMD is making another change which will really help workload performance and that's 4x SMT multi threading - so a 16 core Zen 4 shows up as 64 threads in Windows - so even if Zen 4 has no IPC gain that along will offer a good generational performance gain

I think you hit the nail on the head with your earlier assessment. Intel and AMD’s tick tock approach sounds to me like Fudge-correction. Although I would argue Zen 2 has a bit of both. Ie going from 12nm to 7nm. Zen 3 is meant to be the refinement stage thus all the previous 2 years of design flaws to be ironed out.
Zen 4 is then a new fabrication 5nm and thus new architecture. I think it will bring efficiency on Zen4 and some small IPC. It won’t be Zen5 and beyond you get the big IPC jump. Zen4 should be on DDR5 and PCIe 4 and beyond. Otherwise it will be pointless. AMD may well overlap Zen3 and Zen4 to have DDR4 and DDR5 market cap.

 

[opethdisciple]

My X570 mobo only has a 16Mb BIOS!

But if you look across the entire Gigabyte line of mobos all the bios sizes are 16Mb. (not referring to the chip itself)

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

My X570 mobo only has a 16Mb BIOS!

But if you look across the entire Gigabyte line of mobos all the bios sizes are 16Mb. (not referring to the chip itself)

Yes,quite a few X570 motherboards have 16MB BIOSes chips.

Also,pre-Matisse CPUs not working on X570,is a load of bunkem:
https://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterra...cool_ii_build_1600af_x570_gtx1080_3600cl14_2/

Not the first or last X570 motherboard with Zen+ compatability.

Edit!!

That Asus X570 TUF motherboard has a 32MB BIOS chip,and Zen+ is working fine.

 

[Grim5]

Yes,quite a few X570 motherboards have 16MB BIOSes chips.

Almost all of them are Gigabyte... facepalm Gigabyte. Their "cheap" branding continues

 

[pc-guy]

There is nothing wrong with gigabyte sticking in 16mb rom on X570 board. They don’t expect people to be pairing x570 with Athlons for instance. So the board won’t have support for processors that are old or unlikely to take advantage of the chipset features.

it’s the boards that have 32MB rom that is the problem. In fairness, Max boards and boards with 32MB rom should have never existed then there won’t be this problem.

AMD can simply say the new CPU code exceeds the physical size of rom and therefore only newer board will support zen 3 as they have been programmed to do so.

but as it stands the above statement is not true.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Almost all of them are Gigabyte... facepalm Gigabyte. Their "cheap" branding continues

Honestly,this whole BIOS "issue" and the way it is being handled just has the Benny Hill theme song repeatedly playing in my head.

There is nothing wrong with gigabyte sticking in 16mb rom on X570 board. They don’t expect people to be pairing x570 with Athlons for instance. So the board won’t have support for processors that are old or unlikely to take advantage of the chipset features.

it’s the boards that have 32MB rom that is the problem. In fairness, Max boards and boards with 32MB rom should have never existed then there won’t be this problem.

AMD can simply say the new CPU code exceeds the physical size of rom and therefore only newer board will support zen 3 as they have been programmed to do so.

but as it stands the above statement is not true.

It appears the 16MB BIOS chip X570 motherboards support Zen+ too:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/glen5x/amd_1600_af_is_compatible_with_gigabyte_x570/

32MB BIOS motherboards work fine - Asus and others had 32MB BIOS motherboards in 2018.

MSI motherboards also support BIOS flashback,ie,you don't need a CPU to flash the BIOS.

That means you could literally just have a BIOS which has only Zen3 support. AMD should allow companies such as MSI to do the support themselves,and not restrict microcode from them.

 

[Skynet5]

So not realising my x570 aorus master only has a 16mb rom, I'm on the assumption that a new bios will come along with Zen 3 support and it is likely going to stop my board working with older chips. No problem for me.

Is that right? Or am I not getting zen3? As b450 ain't getting it because they have only 16mb too?

 

[merlin6r]

So not realising my x570 aorus master only has a 16mb rom, I'm on the assumption that a new bios will come along with Zen 3 support and it is likely going to stop my board working with older chips. No problem for me.

Is that right? Or am I not getting zen3? As b450 ain't getting it because they have only 16mb too?

500 boards are getting Zen3/4xxx series support.
400 boards are not as it stands, they're not prepared to delete old CPU's from the BIOS to make room. Although that appears to be what they're doing with the 500 boards.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

So not realising my x570 aorus master only has a 16mb rom, I'm on the assumption that a new bios will come along with Zen 3 support and it is likely going to stop my board working with older chips. No problem for me.

Is that right? Or am I not getting zen3? As b450 ain't getting it because they have only 16mb too?

Maybe,we can't say what excuse AMD will wheel out if there is a X670 with Zen3. They could then some features might or might not work fully with X570 for example. I think it tells me AMD really isn't clear at all to its motherboard partners and system integrators. In the end probably just wait and see what happens.

Edit!!

It appears MSI is pushing for Zen3 compatibility,Gigabyte and ASRock are in the middle and Asus does not care.

 

[Chuk_Chuk]

So not realising my x570 aorus master only has a 16mb rom, I'm on the assumption that a new bios will come along with Zen 3 support and it is likely going to stop my board working with older chips. No problem for me.

Is that right? Or am I not getting zen3? As b450 ain't getting it because they have only 16mb too?

From the AMD slide i believe your board only officially supports Zen 3 and Zen 4

 

[Chuk_Chuk]

AMD Loses Either Way: B450 & Zen 3 Compatibility Deep-Dive, 32MB ROM Issues, & More

"Lisa Su's recent response to a fan indicates they might try and find some partial solution or middle-ground"
It seems that Pre-Matisse CPUs (Zen/Zen+) can't even talk to a 32MB bios rom chip without a workaround because they only have a 16MB address range, so just putting in a 32MB bios chip wont solve the issue.

At the end he talks about how the enthusiast segment is quite small and how they need to watch out for less tech savvy people who may try to upgrade but don't understand what they are doing.

But surely the only people who will be upgrading CPUs are enthusiasts?
The average joe can't even name what model CPU is in their machine let alone figure out what motherboard chipset they have. I just can't see the average person buying a CPU at Curry's to upgrade their prebuilt machine.

 

[LePhuronn]

I just can't see the average person buying a CPU at Curry's to upgrade their prebuilt machine.

Given that enthusiasts probably would source their CPUs from other places, it is entirely reasonable to say that Joe Above-Average would buy a CPU upgrade from Curry's. The sort of person who knows how to stitch a computer together but not aware of the nuances like BIOS support.

That sums up the PC World "Know How" crew to a tee.

 

[Chuk_Chuk]

Given that enthusiasts probably would source their CPUs from other places, it is entirely reasonable to say that Joe Above-Average would buy a CPU upgrade from Curry's. The sort of person who knows how to stitch a computer together but not aware of the nuances like BIOS support.

That sums up the PC World "Know How" crew to a tee.

I just can't see/comprehend how that would be possible TBH. Surely if you know enough to be able to swap a CPU (which would require some googling and youtube videos at a minimum to understand how to take it apart and install the CPU and CPU cooler) they should know what a BIOS is.

I just can't get my head round the idea that someone would manage to figure out that a Ryzen 4000 CPU, fits into their pre B550 motherboard without coming across the words "update BIOS".

But lets say that there is someone in this weird no mans land of a category, surely they are would be an absolutly tiny majority, of personnal system builders.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Looks like Intel was right all along - we need to apologise for all the criticism we gave our Intel overlords! Looks like they knew better.

 

[Doobedoo]

Looks like Intel was right all along - we need to apologise for all the criticism we gave our Intel overlords! Looks like they knew better.

Don’t think so. What they did is inexcusable when they broke many laws to bribe oem’s not to use a superior product for their own gain. That was about as anti consumer as you can get, they nearly bankrupted Amd as a result. That as demonstrated with the decade long dual/quad core market stagnation had ramifications for us the consumer.

Sorry Cat I get what your getting at but the 2 companies are not comparable. One has deliberately held back progress the other is probably closer to incompetence.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Don’t think so. What they did is inexcusable when they broke many laws to bribe oem’s not to use a superior product for their own gain. That was about as anti consumer as you can get, they nearly bankrupted Amd as a result. That as demonstrated with the decade long dual/quad core market stagnation had ramifications for us the consumer.

Sorry Cat I get what your getting at but the 2 companies are not comparable. One has deliberately held back progress the other is probably closer to incompetence.

I am talking about Intel socket changes,so not sure what you are talking about OEMs bribing people. All the AMD people said Intel was bad,for changing sockets,and the same reasons were given by OEMs,etc why Intel did this. Go into every Intel thread,bad Intel for locking out upgrades. Now AMD does it,suddenly the same reasons Intel used were OK,after years of slagging off Intel for doing the same with its OEMs.

So it looks like we should apologise to Intel now,as locking down sockets and chipsets is all valid now......apparently. Its for our own good!

Edit!!

TBF,its happened before with AMD,and they made a whole lot of excuses why they ditched sockets. QuadFX was the worst of them,socket 754,FM1,etc and those were worse than the excuses for X399. Threadripper 2 owners were left high and dry with that one too.

It also makes me wonder whether Socket TR4 will also be replaced when Zen3 is out.

 

[Doobedoo]

I am talking about Intel socket changes,so not sure what you are talking about OEMs bribing people All the pro AMD people said Intel was bad,for changing sockets,and the same reasons were given by OEMs,etc why Intel did this. Now AMD does it,suddenly the same reasons Intel used were OK,after years of slagging off Intel for doing the same with its OEMs.

I know what you meant but what i'm saying is Intel have a proven track record of being anti consumer. Amd have a proven track record of being incompetent.

Amd have tried to give the consumer a clear upgrade path, Intel look like they are not even trying. Yes Amd have yet again put their foot in it and dug a hole for themselves but at least they tried. Intel broke laws to hold back progress and whoopsie they got caught but they knew the risk was worth taking then and they'll do it again.

Yes it has given me at least a different perspective but these are technical issues that can be surmounted by both companies. One has greater means to achieve that than the other.

I get the backlash but I for one applaud what Amd has achieved in such a short space of time. I have no respect for Intel and will use them only If I have too like when they inevitably flex their muscles to resume their ill gotten market monopoly.

Before people judge no that does not make me a fanboy my position is warranted as far as I'm concerned.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I know what you meant but what i'm saying is Intel have a proven track record of being anti consumer. Amd have a proven track record of being incompetent.

Amd have tried to give the consumer a clear upgrade path, Intel look like they are not even trying. Yes Amd have yet again put their mouth in it and dug a hole for themselves but at least they tried. Intel broke laws to hold back progress and whoopsie they got caught but they knew the risk was worth taking then and they'll do it again.

Yes it has given me at least a different perspective but these are technical issues that can be surmounted by both companies. One has greater means to achieve that than the other.

I get the backlash but I for one applaud what Amd has achieved in such a short space of time. I have no respect for Intel and will use them only If I have too like when they inevitably flex their muscles to resume their ill gotten market monopoly.

Before people judge no that does not make me a fanboy my position is warranted as far as I'm concerned.

The problem is whether AMD will try and emulate what Intel is doing once they win,as Intel still makes tons of money doing this. ATM,things like the socket compatbility works in their favour against Intel,as it adds value to their platform. As much as we can criticise Intel,when it comes to gaming they tend to have the edge,hence why so many reviewers still use them,and I think even RTG for some tests.

The issue is say with Zen3,if they win in everything,why would they care?? They are the fastest,so you would buy them anyway else,on laptop or desktop?? It's an added cost,so either go with them or slower Intel.

They did this with the Athlon 64,as they went from socket A,to two different sockets,and dropped the consumer socket far earlier,and unified on the enthusiast socket. Then they introduced an enthusiast dual socket(QuadFX) and it went down the drain in just over a year.Like I mentioned earlier,will Socket TR4 add Zen3 support?? Socket X399 went kaput in a short time too,ie,if you started with Threadripper 2 you basically had a one generation socket. I personally don't like where this is heading,but it's like deja vue for me! I think it is inevitable sadly.

 

[LePhuronn]

I just can't see/comprehend how that would be possible TBH. Surely if you know enough to be able to swap a CPU (which would require some googling and youtube videos at a minimum to understand how to take it apart and install the CPU and CPU cooler) they should know what a BIOS is.

I just can't get my head around how you can be so oblivious to the bigger picture. Even amongst enthusiasts, there are many levels of knowledge and experience. That easily translates to all levels of expertise and computer awareness.

I was building PCs for years before I knew what a BIOS update was. I knew what the BIOS itself was and what to poke around with, but that is an entirely different kettle of fish to BIOS support, microcode updates and flashing. In fact, my first BIOS incompatibility was a friend upgrading his Sandy Bridge system to Ivy Bridge. He literally went as far as "Ivy Bridge is socket 1155 and I already have one of those motherboards" and it didn't work. Granted it didn't take me long to research what the issue was, but nonetheless it was the first time I'd encountered the need to flash a new BIOS to support the next generation of CPUs.

I just can't get my head round the idea that someone would manage to figure out that a Ryzen 4000 CPU, fits into their pre B550 motherboard without coming across the words "update BIOS".

Then what a small world you must live in. "This Ryzen is AM4, this motherboard is AM4, therefore it must fit". What is there to "figure out"? The 2 matching words are on the damn boxes. And therein lies the problem with messy support of the Ryzen range so far. WE know that just because both bits of kit are AM4 and mechanically compatible, they are not compatible at a BIOS level, but Joe Average will not. The very second Joe Average starts Googling "BIOS update to support Ryzen 4000" then they are no longer Joe Average.

It's really not a hard concept to understand.

 

[LePhuronn]

Looks like Intel was right all along - we need to apologise for all the criticism we gave our Intel overlords! Looks like they knew better.

This is just petulant trolling now. Stop it.