AMD Navi 23 ‘NVIDIA Killer’ GPU Rumored to Support Hardware Ray Tracing, Coming Next Year

[pugheaven]

Hope those prices there are accurate, I have a bag of hash browns in the freezer.

rofl rofl rofl I like that

 

[pugheaven]

I understand it precisely. We don't need DLSS if the GPU is powerful enough to run at the required frame rate with the required bells and whistles. It's not a feature is making up for deficiencies. Less pixels to push and your GPU will get the FPS and effects without it.

AMD doesn't need it because we can use image sharpening whcih is amazing in itself and one of the most undersung heros of 5700XT imho I use it and it's incredible

 

[Shiari]

I understand it precisely. We don't need DLSS if the GPU is powerful enough to run at the required frame rate with the required bells and whistles. It's not a feature is making up for deficiencies. Less pixels to push and your GPU will get the FPS and effects without it.

My point really is that DLSS is a bullet point on a feature list that AMD can never meet, but they can possibly meet the performance it achieves, or they may have a similar feature that does achieve the same. It would never be called DLSS however, and "I want DLSS on my GPU" isn't a very effective target, but "I want 60Hz at native 4K" is - how they achieve that doesn't matter as long as the fidelity is there, right?

 

[Jimmy Weirdarms]

Amd very rarely not shine. The trouble is that shine is never enough for the haters, dingbats, trolls and fanboys.

Point in case: Vega offered nothing, Polaris never scaled past entry level and then out of the blue the 5700XT lands and beats Nvidia's shiny "brand new" 2070 for a chunk of bucks less. But no, that's clearly not AMD shining because there's nothing to beat the 2080 Ti, it doesn't cost £50, there's no ray tracing despite the 2070 can't ray trace for **** in the 3 games that use it, there's no DLSS despite RIS and FidelityFX being superior to DLSS 1.0, and DLSS 1.0 only exists in 2 games.

But it didn't soundly beat the 2070S that nvidia put out at the same time, doesn't do DLSS 2 or RT, and it didn't do what people really wanted it to - force a reset in the prices. It just sort-of fitted in with them on about the same scale rather than embarassing nvidia.

Everyone seems to think nvidia prices have gone crazy, and not without reason. What they want is AMD to come along and sell something obviously better (not kinda/sorta better, maybe 2% in some games, if you squint and wait for the drivers to be refined in a year, and if you're comparing against the 70), and significantly cheaper. They're looking for a "**** you nvidia!" moment like the "**** you intel!" moment that happened with Ryzen. And unfortunately at this point, AMD have a history of promising that moment (or perhaps their fanboys do) but actually delivering something that's competitive-ish to nvidia's popular cards, and not the higher-end ones, and not significantly cheaper for the most part.

I seriously hope this release is that moment. It would be epic.

And I'm afraid you do have to acknowledge that having the best card on the market, even if it's priced beyond most people, is great for your image as technology leaders.

 

[Troezar]

Correct.

Which is why I stand firm on my statement to the strange people that retort "its AMD's fault nvidia are so expensive" , well its not is it? nvidia are putting out the price they want to charge to make profit. This 30 series release is not cheaper, its the going rate for their lineup (see 10 series and before). So not if, but when AMD release their cards and they undercut nvidia, will we see the excuses @KentMan has adeptly highlighted of "oh well it needs to have DLSS and raytracing" because that's exactly whats gonna happen here. So no, its not AMD's fault for anything as people just want to buy one brand <end argument>.

I think this also touches on how much profit is enough. I know it's currently in vogue to say whatever the market will bear but do we want to live in that world? It's already showing that with only one or two players competition doesn't drive down pricing. Easy credit is driving it up too, just becomes a bidding war. Who is prepared to go into the most debt to match the rising prices.

 

[pugheaven]

Amd very rarely not shine. The trouble is that shine is never enough for the haters, dingbats, trolls and fanboys.

Point in case: Vega offered nothing, Polaris never scaled past entry level and then out of the blue the 5700XT lands and beats Nvidia's shiny "brand new" 2070 for a chunk of bucks less. But no, that's clearly not AMD shining because there's nothing to beat the 2080 Ti, it doesn't cost £50, there's no ray tracing despite the 2070 can't ray trace for **** in the 3 games that use it, there's no DLSS despite RIS and FidelityFX being superior to DLSS 1.0, and DLSS 1.0 only exists in 2 games.

RDNA 1 did shine within its admittedly limited scope, RDNA 2 is starting to glimmer even with little information out there, Nvidia went into utter panic mode and botched Ampere at every level. AMD are already shining.

The question though is can AMD capitalise.

100% this, RIS is amazing, I've used it ever since and allows me to run 4k ultra settings in BF5 at 70-100fps... and looks fantastic... you would 100% swear you're running native 4k!

DLSS 1.0 was an abomination of softeness just like overly AA use just smudges everything out...... and AMD never ever got the plaudits for RIS. It's superb!

The 6900Xt does NOT need RT imho, concentrate on PURE POWER which is where 99% of all games are! RT won't be a factor until gen3, gen2, I'm absolutely not interested in it at all and I think a lot of gamers aren't either.

 

[Sargatanas2511]

My point really is that DLSS is a bullet point on a feature list that AMD can never meet, but they can possibly meet the performance it achieves, or they may have a similar feature that does achieve the same. It would never be called DLSS however, and "I want DLSS on my GPU" isn't a very effective target, but "I want 60Hz at native 4K" is - how they achieve that doesn't matter as long as the fidelity is there, right?

Call it Dramatically Lower Stutter System 3.0 and release it in October. You're welcome AMD .

 

[Troezar]

AMD doesn't need it because we can use image sharpening whcih is amazing in itself and one of the most undersung heros of 5700XT imho I use it and it's incredible

I've not tried it out, I'll have to give it a go but I only use 1440p so the 5700XT seems quite happy at that resolution.

 

[Troezar]

My point really is that DLSS is a bullet point on a feature list that AMD can never meet, but they can possibly meet the performance it achieves, or they may have a similar feature that does achieve the same. It would never be called DLSS however, and "I want DLSS on my GPU" isn't a very effective target, but "I want 60Hz at native 4K" is - how they achieve that doesn't matter as long as the fidelity is there, right?

I think we're coming to agreement from opposite angles. As mentioned by pugheaven RIS is effective.

 

[KentMan]

My point really is that DLSS is a bullet point on a feature list that AMD can never meet, but they can possibly meet the performance it achieves, or they may have a similar feature that does achieve the same. It would never be called DLSS however, and "I want DLSS on my GPU" isn't a very effective target, but "I want 60Hz at native 4K" is - how they achieve that doesn't matter as long as the fidelity is there, right?

Exactly, the point is, people will conjure up whatever guff they want to justify their purchase, or justify why they wont purchase something else, even if its cutting off their nose to spite their face, so to speak.

Me? i just want raw performance, i don't want gimmicks (ive not even used the Radeon sharpening stuff), i care less about Ray Tracing etc, as if it was something worthwhile we would have had it years ago. Seems to me Nvidia needed an angle to flog their overpriced tat 2xxx series, and RTX was that particular angle, they run with it in the new 3xxx series, and DLSS, it seems Nvidia will probably conjure up some other bespoke blackbox nonsense that only they and a handful of games support and lord it like its the cure for cancer. Nvidia have a loooong history of this.

JHH if anything else, is a damn good salesman, he could probably sell ice to eskimo's.

I prefer AMD's open source angle to be honest, and they don't try to wow us with proprietary nonsense as much as Nvidia does, sure they label a lot of things like Adaptive Sync as their own (Freesync), but at the end of the day these are all options that are generally available to all GPU manufacturers if they wish to use them.

I still laugh at people who bought the 2070 for "Raytracing" yeah thats going to be an awfully good experience, and the people expecting 3070 to beast the 2080ti (i smell disappointment).

I'll happily wait out AMD's cards, and pick the one that matches the price to performance ratio that im interested in 3440x1440p at decent settings 100fps solid please!

 

[KentMan]

But it didn't soundly beat the 2070S that nvidia put out at the same time, doesn't do DLSS 2 or RT, and it didn't do what people really wanted it to - force a reset in the prices. It just sort-of fitted in with them on about the same scale rather than embarassing nvidia.

Everyone seems to think nvidia prices have gone crazy, and not without reason. What they want is AMD to come along and sell something obviously better (not kinda/sorta better, maybe 2% in some games, if you squint and wait for the drivers to be refined in a year, and if you're comparing against the 70), and significantly cheaper. They're looking for a "**** you nvidia!" moment like the "**** you intel!" moment that happened with Ryzen. And unfortunately at this point, AMD have a history of promising that moment (or perhaps their fanboys do) but actually delivering something that's competitive-ish to nvidia's popular cards, and not the higher-end ones, and not significantly cheaper for the most part.

I seriously hope this release is that moment. It would be epic.

And I'm afraid you do have to acknowledge that having the best card on the market, even if it's priced beyond most people, is great for your image as technology leaders.

I have to take a slight issue with this bit, as much like Intel and their "Best Gaming CPU" there is always a drawback to these products, might be the best CPU for gaming but its riddled with security issues and backdoors, that if you patch to mitigate, will basically hamstring that best in class performance and make it no longer best in class.

Obviously slightly different from Nvidia, but this time round they hit a homerun with how bad this launch was, while you may get "best in class performance" from the 3090, your paying twice the price of the 3080 which beats the 2080ti... and that performance is not very much more for that double the cost either.

And the 3080 is riddled with issues, Partner cards not clocked as high as FE Cards out the box, partners deliberately gimping their cards performance so they can segregate their offerings, and this is due to the fact the 3080 silicon, is quite frankly, rubbish... its pushed to its absolute limit out of the box. In all honesty the 3080 is Nvidias Fiji Fury moment... But you do not see anywhere near the ridicule AMD got when they released that steaming pile of junk.

So no, i dont think it is great for your image, on first glance yeah maybe, but once you actually look close and see what its cost to take that crown, you start laughing at the corners that have been cut to achieve it.

 

[melmac]

I personally had a 3870, 4870, 5870 and 7970 with no issues. I have a 1080Ti now and get black screens when connecting my TV via HDMI.

Disconnecting the TV stops the black screens (which are intermittent) and reconnecting it causes them to happen again, so it's definitely an issue but it's not often I use my TV with my PC anyway so not massively fussed.

No driver from either company is perfect. There will always be little issues from both sides. I have had 9700pro, 9800pro, x1900xt, 3870, 4870x2, 5870, 6950, 7970, R9 290, Vega 64, 5700XT and never had a driver problem personally(apart from the 2 5700XTs). But, I worked in repairs for a computer shop and in IT for a large multinational. I know AMD's drivers problems were real.

Do Nvidia's drivers have issues, sure they do, you highlighted on particular weakness of Nvidia, connecting to TV's. They also had a bug for years with HDMI black levels. Just like AMD have minor bugs etc.

Now Nvidia seem to have messed up drivers this launch with black screens etc. IF they don't it fixed pretty quickly then their reputation will start to suffer too. And if AMD have a good launch with no driver issues then that will help change people's mindset. But, it won't happen overnight and not with one GPU launch. They will have to be consistent. And no point in saying "but, but, Nvidia get away with this etc etc." Of course, when you have 80% of the market share you can get away with making a few mistakes. But, AMD have to be better. They have to do what they are doing with the CPU market. Remember their first Ryzen launch was ok, not great but ok and they got fixes out very quickly for the issues. And since then every Ryzen CPU launch has got better and better.

I can't wait for their announcement on the 28th of October, hope it's a reveal of performance and price.

 

[Shiari]

i care less about Ray Tracing etc, as if it was something worthwhile we would have had it years ago

Well, have to stop you there. If we had actual, well performing real time ray tracing, you'd know it. Imagine Pixar quality imagery at high frame rates. Or perhaps as a step beyond that imagine the quality movies that currently take a year to render being presented in real time. It would save the artists a lot of time, and our games would look a heck of a lot better with ray tracing. What we have right now are visual hacks that render fast but take time to be created and can easily fail under a different scenario, whereas proper ray tracing can produce photorealistic imagery (or at the very least MUCH better lighting and shading) and that's entirely worth to have.

Absolute pipe dream at this time, the RTX of today can only do a fraction of what say Blender can do, and what it can do does look nice but you're right that right now that's a bit of a gimmick. Having everything ray traced however, if we could have that, would be amazing. We need several times the performance we have right now at least though.

 

[Shiari]

Now Nvidia seem to have messed up drivers this launch with black screens etc. IF they don't it fixed pretty quickly then their reputation will start to suffer too. And if AMD have a good launch with no driver issues then that will help change people's mindset. But, it won't happen overnight and not with one GPU launch. They will have to be consistent. And no point in saying "but, but, Nvidia get away with this etc etc." Of course, when you have 80% of the market share you can get away with making a few mistakes. But, AMD have to be better. They have to do what they are doing with the CPU market. Remember their first Ryzen launch was ok, not great but ok and they got fixes out very quickly for the issues. And since then every Ryzen CPU launch has got better and better.

Yeah, here's to hoping for a good launch this October and beyond.

 

[Nabeshogun]

Honestly i think people spout DLSS without realising it is not the magic bullet people proclaim it to be, as if it was Every game would have it and support it. Seems to be mostly used as an excuse for peoples justification of purchasing Nvidia against AMD lately.

Right, it's not in all games yet. The important thing being yet. DLSS 1.0 seemed pretty meh, but now they've got DLSS 2.0 up and running and it doesn't need to be trained on a per-game basis on their supercomputers (and seems to work phenomenally based an all the independent tests) then I can't see any reason why anyone would argue something so beneficial devs won't put in their games going forward. The only big issue is the lack of people that could make use of it, but over time it'd be reasonable to expect the proprotion of people with RTX cards to grow as older ones become obsolete.

From what I read it needs the motion vector data from the engine - which isn't directly supported in the mainstream ones, so it's not like flipping a switch to then have it appear in a game, which is why we've not just seen it suddenly appear as an option in everything... for example in UE nVidia have this engine fork thing that needs to be inserted into the game, so it'd take dev time. I doubt we'll see it appearing in older titles unless they're still having a lot of man hours put into them...

But honestly you seem to just want to frame things in a bad light, there's plenty of independent tests showing what DLSS 2.0 can do in the games devs have taken the time to enable it, it's not something you need to take anyone's word over... just like saying it'd be a £250 saving, a 3080 has a msrp of £650 not £750, even if things have temporarily shot up there and that's not what I'd pay for one nor a price I expect them to maintain long term (and if AMDs offering is decent I expect that to go above mrsp and be out of stock, though probably not in quite a terrible manner as nVidia did, and hopefully with less dubious marketing if they can learn a lesson from their competitors mistakes).

They're just 2 companies, caring about either one makes no sense, it's just about trying to determine what's the best bit of value tech and what'd suit someone now and for the time they're expecting to have it... I'm certainly waiting for AMD to shoot their shot and everything be in the hands of people to test and stock to settle down so I can make an informed decision about what's what... but something that can give performance gains like DLSS is something I take into account, if AMD brings out a similar feature that does it even better then that consideration would swing in their favour... who's doing what I don't really care about, just what I'm getting.

 

[Nablaoperator]

Having everything ray traced however, if we could have that, would be amazing

They would have solved the traveling salesman problem before that..I have been going through the Nvidia ray tracing gems and hope to update my opinion about ray tracing.

 

[KentMan]

Well, have to stop you there. If we had actual, well performing real time ray tracing, you'd know it. Imagine Pixar quality imagery at high frame rates. Or perhaps as a step beyond that imagine the quality movies that currently take a year to render being presented in real time. It would save the artists a lot of time, and our games would look a heck of a lot better with ray tracing. What we have right now are visual hacks that render fast but take time to be created and can easily fail under a different scenario, whereas proper ray tracing can produce photorealistic imagery (or at the very least MUCH better lighting and shading) and that's entirely worth to have.

Absolute pipe dream at this time, the RTX of today can only do a fraction of what say Blender can do, and what it can do does look nice but you're right that right now that's a bit of a gimmick. Having everything ray traced however, if we could have that, would be amazing. We need several times the performance we have right now at least though.

This is exactly my badly made point.... Nvidia have their junk proprietary RTX hybrid ray tracing but everyone who is a novice thinks this is what Ray Tracing is! because Nvidia told us so. So now we have everyone climbing over each over to gobble up Nvidias hack attempt at Ray Tracing like its the second coming of the messiah, when quite frankly it often looks utter junk and gives a huge hit to performance while doing so.

I wish this rubbish was just scrapped and not invested into by game devs until its at a point where it truly is breathtakingly amazing and a must have, rather than another bullet point on a box to try and shift more units and endorse a huge price hike.

 

[Troezar]

This is exactly my badly made point.... Nvidia have their junk proprietary RTX hybrid ray tracing but everyone who is a novice thinks this is what Ray Tracing is! because Nvidia told us so. So now we have everyone climbing over each over to gobble up Nvidias hack attempt at Ray Tracing like its the second coming of the messiah, when quite frankly it often looks utter junk and gives a huge hit to performance while doing so.

I wish this rubbish was just scrapped and not invested into by game devs until its at a point where it truly is breathtakingly amazing and a must have, rather than another bullet point on a box to try and shift more units and endorse a huge price hike.

This is where AMD need to get smarter. Emphasise their open standards, commitment to affordable performance and community values. If you have something different to offer from the competition you have to sell it, most consumers are lazy

 

[pugheaven]

if AMD brings out a similar feature that does it even better then that consideration would swing in their favour... who's doing what I don't really care about, just what I'm getting.

We've had it for a year and it's superb, I can't believe that it's not really been exploited by people... RIS is AMD's take on image sharpening to enable upsampling... DLSS 2.0 and RIS are both great techs, lets hope AMD give us RIS2.0 is all, i.e. a better version...

"Once again, this reinforces our opinion that a simple sharpening filter can be as good as, or in this case noticeably better than DLSS, for a similar performance uplift. We remember saying this when testing DLSS (see our first take and take two) and despite there being hope that Nvidia would ‘train’ DLSS to be improve over time, that hasn’t eventuated."

https://www.techspot.com/article/1873-radeon-image-sharpening-vs-nvidia-dlss/

 

[melmac]

They would have solved the traveling salesman problem before that..I have been going through the Nvidia ray tracing gems and hope to update my opinion about ray tracing.

I love Ray Tracing. It's something I am genuinely excited about. If you told me 4 years ago I would be able to play some games using Ray Tracing in real time in 2019, I don't think I would have believed you. The number of games released wasn't an issue for me, I just wanted to experience it myself. Metro Exodus and Control and even Quake II all look amazing with it.

But, then again, I am just a fan of technology. I bought an R9 290 for Mantle even though it was only in very few games, it was still really good. Games were just so smooth.

I hope everyone involved keeps pushing Ray Tracing. Consoles should help with it becoming more and more widely used.